USA and FAI rules

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:31:23 PM UTC-8, noel.wade wrote:
Regardless of whether or not you think "Club" or "Sports" is the way
to go, I would like to point at myself as the perfect example of what
Peter is referring to. I'm 35 (which is young for a US glider pilot).
I started gliding in late 2006. I bought my DG-300 in 2008 (a fancy
and "high-dollar" ship for someone with less than 100 hours in the
sport). I tried my first competition in early 2009 - a little regional
down at Warner Springs, CA.

If it wasn't for the Sports class, I probably never would have even
tried competitions (or maybe once, just to say I'd done it). But why
pay for competition entries just to get my ass repeatedly kicked by
D2s, V2s, and other high-dollar glass being flown by super-experienced
pilots?

One tiny point of dissent with your otherwise good post ;^)

When I flew in my first sanctioned contest, an R12 Regional at Tonopah back around the turn of the century, they were only doing FAI classes, so I had to fly my DG-300 in Standard Class against D1s, D2s, and LS-8s flown by super-experienced pilots. Oddly enough, I managed to win a day. Now, that was back in the days of the 9 lb/sq ft wing loading limit (which put the DG at less of a disadvantage), and while I had no sanctioned contest experience, I had a fair bit of local league racing experience, thanks to the efforts of Peter Deane. Plus, I'd been flying in the Great Basin for years, so I knew when to zig rather than zag like nearly everyone else did that day. My point is, no one need be afraid to fly older ship in FAI class regionals (or even nationals, though I never had time or inclination). You still learn a lot, and skills and technique can often make up for some deficit in performance.

Now, to be honest, I dislike MATs (I'd rather just do my own thing closer to home), and as a result never entered any Sports Class contests. If we can actually get some Club Class contests with sensible performance ranges, and a decent percentage of ATs and TATs I, for one, would likely jump in again...

Marc

Really Peter, you have got to stop being so reasonable;
it has absolutely no place on RAS.
See ya, Dave

Marc -

A properly-called MAT can essentially simulate an AT. Why the hate
for MATs? Have you simply had bad experiences because they weren't
properly called?

And as a small quibble: Logically one can say the things you said
about flying in FAI classes. And yes, its a learning experience and
still fun and those are all true statements. But that TOTALLY ignores
emotion and human behavioral tendencies. A contest - even a regional -
requires many HUNDREDS of dollars these days (entry-fee, food,
lodging, gas, other expenses) - and a week of precious vacation-time.
Those of you who can look at an "unwinable" situation and still choose
to put in that time and money are in the slim minority. Most people
are going to want to _feel_ like they have a fighting chance, to get
them to even try. Now once the hook is truly set, then more people
(like me) will gladly hurl themselves into the fray and spend ungodly
amounts of time and money at it. But you have to provide an
attractive "point of entry" for most folks.

--Noel

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:57:31 PM UTC-6, noel.wade wrote:
Marc -



A properly-called MAT can essentially simulate an AT. Why the hate

for MATs? Have you simply had bad experiences because they weren't

properly called?

The key phrase is "properly-called". The real problem a lot of us have with all these new-fangled tasks (Area, MAT, PST) is that they are not being used correctly - they are copouts for CDs who aren't willing to send the fleet out on a challenging task with the possibility of landing out. That has resulted in such horrors as the one-turnpoint MAT (Or - "you get to be CD for the day!") and the AAT with consecutive 30 mile areas that almost overlap ("OLC with a time limit"). With all due respect to KS, I still prefer the old AT - because unless everybody is going to about the same place, IT ISN'T A RACE - ITS A MONTY PYTHON SKIT!

And yes, I have CD'd, and called ATs where everybody landed out, and AATs when I couldn't figure out the weather on a Sunday. It's not easy. But if it was easy, everybody would be doing it!

So, if you have a variety of skills and ships, then a 5 or 6 tp MAT may be the solution. If there is a potential of thunderstorms near one turnpoint, then an AAT with a big area near the risky turnpoint (and small for the safe ones) is an appropriate call. But if the forecast is for a solid day of thermals, then call a nice long (which means at least 4 hours, not 2.5!) AT and have a RACE!

Then there is the PST. An abomination. Here is a task that actively keeps pilots AWAY from contests. Why bother? Just use OLC and skip the scorer altogether.

Bah Humbug, I'm digging out my turnpoint photo book and cameras, and I think there is an old start gate rig around here somewhere...

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:57:31 PM UTC-8, noel.wade wrote:
A properly-called MAT can essentially simulate an AT. Why the hate
for MATs? Have you simply had bad experiences because they weren't
properly called?

Just about every MAT I've flown has been something along the lines of "here's your first turnpoint, come back in 3 hours". So, yeah, I don't like them, as the ones I've experienced are little more than PSTs with a TP or two thrown in for the hell of it. To me, they are usually more like pin-ball games than actual cross-country glider racing.

And as a small quibble: Logically one can say the things you said
about flying in FAI classes. And yes, its a learning experience and
still fun and those are all true statements. But that TOTALLY ignores
emotion and human behavioral tendencies. A contest - even a regional -
requires many HUNDREDS of dollars these days (entry-fee, food,
lodging, gas, other expenses) - and a week of precious vacation-time.
Those of you who can look at an "unwinable" situation and still choose
to put in that time and money are in the slim minority. Most people
are going to want to _feel_ like they have a fighting chance, to get
them to even try. Now once the hook is truly set, then more people
(like me) will gladly hurl themselves into the fray and spend ungodly
amounts of time and money at it. But you have to provide an
attractive "point of entry" for most folks.

I think you've inadvertently exposed an important insight here. A lot of us (in my experience more than a slim minority) fly contests not to "win", but to have fun flying decently set tasks with friends in an organized fashion. In fact, when I started "winning" too much, a lot of the fun went out of it for me. I started feeling the competitive urge to put serious work into staying near the top of the scoresheet, then started taking chances I would never take in recreational flying, so eventually I decided it was time to quit. If contests continue to be increasingly expensive (thanks to such things as newly required equipment), time consuming, and with tasks aimed primarily at those who think they have a chance of winning, a lot of the rest of us will vote with our feet, and go do OLC or something. At least, that was my experience, and I wouldn't discount the possibility that this is part of the reason for dwindling numbers...

Marc

For once, I agree with Kirk! One-turn MATs are evil, but also a good learning experience. I remember one contest at Parowan some years ago where the threat of widespread thunderstorms led the CD to set one of these. I chose a largish triangle with two turnpoints that both ended up having thunderstorms right over the top of them. With no nearby turnpoints, I had to dash under the storm cloud, dodging hail and lightning to get within the 1-mile radius. Never again!

Mike

Marc, I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping that I never experience the anguish of "winning too much." That is one hell of a cross to bear, and I'm sure your fellow competitors are only too happy that you're not up to the task (hey, nice pun)

Clay

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:01:17 AM UTC-8, Clay wrote:
Marc, I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping that I never experience the anguish of "winning too much." That is one hell of a cross to bear, and I'm sure your fellow competitors are only too happy that you're not up to the task (hey, nice pun)

Well, that didn't quite come out the way I wanted it, but let's just say once I did manage to win 15M in my local regionals, 2nd was no longer good enough ;^)

Of course, I mostly managed to score well by not landing out, a necessity since I never had a crew...

Marc

Noel,

I thought I would respond to your post as I am a pilot of similar contest experience and own a glider of performance. I see glider competition very differently than you do. I am 41, so a little older but flew my first real contest 2 years ago. I think loosing needs to be something you expect as we are both new to this sport. If found ourselves winning right away why bother? That is not a challenge. I come from a sailboat racing background which is an intense sport where even the best competitors lose more than they win. Sailing is just that intense and competitive in most classes. It took me many years to win my first major competition. IOW, I got my ass kicked for years before getting close to the podium. I suggest that you need to be less concerned about getting your ass kicked and instead understand that intense competition is a sign of a great opportunity to learn. We need even more great pilots than we have now in the USA. I am lucky to live near Canada with arguably the best 15/18 meter racing pilots in North America 4 hours away. I flew my first contest in their 18M nationals in a Lak17a while they were flying ASG29's and LS8's. Talk about getting your ass kicked. I never complained. I was happy to pay the entry fee for an opportunity to fly with these great pilots and learn from them.

You say "why pay for competition entries just to get my ass repeatedly kicked by
D2s, V2s, and other high-dollar glass being flown by super-experienced
pilots?"

I say, that is exactly what happens today in most US sports class contests! A true US Club Class would eliminate the high dollar gliders and associated pilots from the environment. It is extremely difficult to handicap a Grob 102 effectively with an ASG29 or V2. So much so that it just makes no competitive sense doing so. Getting your ass kicked is what learning a new sport or business or game is about. Again, if its easy from the offset what is the challenge? Why bother? If you are looking for a class to win immediately in just make one up and apply for a waiver. Perhaps the DG 300 class ;-)? I just see this concept 100% opposite.

You say "The handicapping and spread of pilot experience made Sports Class far
more appealing. And the supportive atmosphere from fellow competitors
(especially the experienced ones who freely share their local
knowledge and wisdom) keep me coming back. And I've found that
atmosphere much more prevalent in Regional handicapped races, than at
high-stakes Nationals."

I say, wow!?! I don't get this statement, at all. Far more appealing to race a cirrus vs. a V2? So the larger the handicap spread the more appealing a sailplane racing class is is to you? I say, it is ABSOLUTELY false that Sports class is the only means of a supportive atmosphere. Keep in mind that the US Club Class has essentially been blocked by the Rules Committee until this year, but only at the nationals if 12+ pilots register to fly within it. What they have proposed is a much larger handicap range than has been proven successful in the rest of the world, essentially destroying the class dynamics itself and changing the game dramatically. When the US Club Class happens (IGC range), and it will, you will find the pilots within this class are extremely friendly, helpful and supportive of new pilots (while being great competitors as well). Supportive and friendly pilots being open to sharing and helping other pilots IS NOT the exclusive territory of US Sports Class.

You say, "If you want to push the top end of the contest group, you need to
build a broad, solid base first. Over time a bigger base of pilots
will ensure you net more "top guns" (i.e. 1% of 5000 is more than 1%
of 1000). The cream will rise to the top, and drive everyone around
them (who's serious about staying on top) to do better. If you neglect
the base, the whole system slowly withers on the vine; and without new
blood coming up to challenge the existing top dogs, people aren't as
driven to evolve or improve. Things stagnate - the top dogs probably
stay on top; but only within their own limited peer-group. Eventually
age takes its toll and the top dogs disappear into the sunset - and
who is left to take their place?"

I say, "The base you speak of will become the US Club Class (IGC handicap range). The top guns will be in the Sports Class High Class moving forward (essentially a blend of standard, 15M, 18M, 20M and Open). The RC just needs to get out of the way, and RETAIN US Sports Class as is!" You should be 100% supportive of that idea based on your post. The US Club Class will be a high tech factory for enthusiastic new young contest pilots in the US for years to come. It will be the foundry for developing Jr. pilots in the US. It will be the place to race IGC rules. A place were you can be competitive with most of the gliders on THIS LIST: http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...ap_list_ARG_V2 These gliders are abundantly available, very affordable and translate directly to the world Club Class standards.

Anyway, I know my opinion is vastly different than yours. I just wanted to explain it in detail.
Best,

Sean
F2

To prove limited handicap racing works well and brings in newer pilots, Noel did *quite well* in his DG300 at the first limited handicap range Std Nats at montague last year......

Limited handicap contests work well, and foster competitive racing.

The Argentinian system has proved this very well. We should learn from this and other examples around the world.

2T

On Tuesday, 29 January 2013 12:31:23 UTC-8, noel.wade wrote:
On Jan 28, 1:09*pm, wrote:



Club is the most accessible, affordable racing class available to us. I believe club class is the long term foundation

for pilot development in the US and can be an excellent trial class for a 'best of US/IGC' system. (thinking here that

handicapping for wt as per the US is a plus, as one example of the ways we can pick the best system)



Peter Deane (my own views - *not necessarily those of the USTC)





Regardless of whether or not you think "Club" or "Sports" is the way

to go, I would like to point at myself as the perfect example of what

Peter is referring to. I'm 35 (which is young for a US glider pilot).

I started gliding in late 2006. I bought my DG-300 in 2008 (a fancy

and "high-dollar" ship for someone with less than 100 hours in the

sport). I tried my first competition in early 2009 - a little regional

down at Warner Springs, CA.



If it wasn't for the Sports class, I probably never would have even

tried competitions (or maybe once, just to say I'd done it). But why

pay for competition entries just to get my ass repeatedly kicked by

D2s, V2s, and other high-dollar glass being flown by super-experienced

pilots?



The handicapping and spread of pilot experience made Sports Class far

more appealing. And the supportive atmosphere from fellow competitors

(especially the experienced ones who freely share their local

knowledge and wisdom) keep me coming back. And I've found that

atmosphere much more prevalent in Regional handicapped races, than at

high-stakes Nationals.



If you want to push the top end of the contest group, you need to

build a broad, solid base first. Over time a bigger base of pilots

will ensure you net more "top guns" (i.e. 1% of 5000 is more than 1%

of 1000). The cream will rise to the top, and drive everyone around

them (who's serious about staying on top) to do better. If you neglect

the base, the whole system slowly withers on the vine; and without new

blood coming up to challenge the existing top dogs, people aren't as

driven to evolve or improve. Things stagnate - the top dogs probably

stay on top; but only within their own limited peer-group. Eventually

age takes its toll and the top dogs disappear into the sunset - and

who is left to take their place?



--Noel

(with total respect and thanks for the top dogs out there who've

helped me learn to dog-paddle over the past 5 years...)