Alien Attack Described By Werner Von Braun's CoWorker

Wait, don't tell me, the Aliens are from Uranus, right?

Don

Eunometic wrote:
On Oct 11, 1:19 am, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
wrote:
"Eunometic" wrote in message

...

On Oct 9, 8:08 am, Bert wrote:
Quaa
wrote:

Werner Von Braun the Father of Rocket Science

You've read his biography, haven't you?

"I Aim For the Stars (but sometimes I hit London)"
Of course this comes from the lyrics of a left wing jewish satirist
pushing his own agenda.

Seems the truth hurts, especially when it is made into jokes.
snip


There is no truth here by you or Lehrer, only a double standard.

The core POINT is this: the allies bombed when they could not
possibly achieve any accuracy
because they did not develop the technical means to do so similarly
von Braun's missile was
forced into use before it was ready and achchieved high accuracy.

The allies had the possibillity to develop technical means but it
seems the
dehousing and area bombardment policy meant disinterest.


Which rather ignores the fact that they DID develop the technical
means in the form of Oboe, Gee, H2S, Loran etc while the
Germans kept right on area bombing.



The bulk of Bomber commands night time raids were conducted by H2S at
night, irrespective of whether it was the 9cm version or
the 3cm version the system had Circular Error probables of 5 miles.

Worse than the early V2.


Well no , 5 miles was BEFORE the technical aids were developed.


At certain periodes of the year the by far the bulk of the USAAF's
raids were
conducted under cloud cover and demonstrated similarly poor levels of
accuracy.

Worse than the early V2.


Well no, the Americans could actually hit a city which the V-2
struggled to manage.

Even under 50% clould cover the accuracy of daylight bombardment was
not spectactular.

Morover von Braun was designing a system with high accuracy.

So what do we have? Perhaps 50% of RAF bomber commands raids and
perhaps 25% of the 8th airforce with worse accuracy than the V2?


Only in your mind

The spectactular accuracies selectively quoted from the USSBS are for
ideal conditions.


The V2 on the other hand was technically CLOSE to achieving a
consistant 1km CEP: 5-7 times more accurate than H2S/H2X
in darkness and 100% cloud cover, creating 25-49 times less collateral
damage area.


It actually achieved 12 km

It would have been considerably more accurate than H2X in partial
cloud cover.

And hardly worse than the spread of collateral damage caused by
formation bombing.


The V-2 was intended to cause collateral damage, its aiming point
was the city centre, the German government boasted that it was
intended to cause terror.

Keith


..

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT), Don in Vegas and Memphis!
wrote:

Wait, don't tell me, the Aliens are from Uranus, right?

Don

Spread the, Let's see.

Keith

On Oct 13, 9:36 am, "Keith Willshaw" wrote:


The allies had the possibillity to develop technical means but it
seems the dehousing and area bombardment policy meant disinterest.

Which rather ignores the fact that they DID develop the technical
means in the form of Oboe, Gee, H2S, Loran etc while the
Germans kept right on area bombing.

The Germans had the technical means to blind bomb as well,
Sonnenschein a hyperbolic navigation system, Bernhard-Bernhardine
(virtually unjammable),
EGON and the Oboe like EGON-II as well as "Zyklops" a late war beam
riding system. All saw considerable use.

EGON was to be replaced by FuG 226 Neuling since EGON was simply a
beefed up version of the Luftwaffe's standard IFF and by the end of
the war compromised.

H2S was mostly useless untill post war 1.5cm versions incorporating
more advanced signal processing.

Where the allies failed was in the development of an accurate system
that works "over the horrison".

Such a system used Oboe like contollers in orbiting aircraft but was
never pushed: area bombardment was apparently to desirable.

For the Germans over the horison blind attacks would have used a
missile like the A4b with an postion update to an inertial guidance
system a minute before impact when the missile was still not below
line of sight.






The bulk of Bomber commands night time raids were conducted by H2S at
night, irrespective of whether it was the 9cm version or
the 3cm version the system had Circular Error probables of 5 miles.

Worse than the early V2.

Well no , 5 miles was BEFORE the technical aids were developed.


5 miles was what H2X achieved. 9cm H2S was worse.

Read the results of the oxford experiment

The Oxford experiment showed that H2X bombing:


"Forty-two percent of the
bombs had fallen more than
five miles from this point."


http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/rad...ing-26720.html

The Combat Accuracy of H2X Bombing
By the time the Oxford experiment was
completed, the momentum of the war was
such that the Eighth Air Force sent missions
against Germany using Gee-H, Micro-
H, or H2X blind bombing equipment,
as appropriate and necessary, on every day
on which it could fly its airplanes. The last
big report prepared by the bombing accuracy
subsection covered all bombing from
the period September 1 to December 31,
1944; it showed that 58 percent of all
Eighth Air Force bombing for this period
was done with the aid of H2X, and that 35
percent was through 10/10 cloud cover.
Thus, H2X had in fact become the dominant
mode of bombing.

Furthermore, the report showed that,
when the cloud cover was reported as 10/
10, only 0.2 of one percent of the bombs
had fallen within 1,000 feet of the assigned
aiming point, and that 42 percent
had fallen more than five miles from this
point. The 58 percent of the bombs that
fell less than five miles from the aiming
point were distributed uniformly over a
circle of radius five miles [McArthur 1990,
pp. 287-298].

When Lt. Col. Scott and I were invited
to present the findings of this report at a
meeting of the staff officers at the headquarters
of the Second Division, Scott
asked me to do the talking. It was not an
easy assignment to present a report of such
poor accuracy, and Scott was glad to hand
it over to a civilian. Four generals sat in
the front row. I summarized the accuracy
figures in the report; they showed that the
accuracy of visual bombing had shown a
threefold improvement since the beginning
of the war, but that H2X bombing had not
improved during its use by the Eighth Air
Force.

When I had finished, two of the generals
insisted that the Eighth Air Force had
wasted planes, bombs, and men on its
campaign of inaccurate blind bombing, but
the other two supported the policy because
it kept the pressure on the enemy throughout
the period. While they argued, Scott
and I went home. It was not our business
to tell them how to operate the air force


SNIP

The spectactular accuracies selectively quoted from the USSBS are for
ideal conditions.

The V2 on the other hand was technically CLOSE to achieving a
consistant 1km CEP: 5-7 times more accurate than H2S/H2X
in darkness and 100% cloud cover, creating 25-49 times less collateral
damage area.

It actually achieved 12 km

The dispersion in systematic test shots was 4.5km using inertial boost
phase only guidance.

If the Viktoria-Hawaii beam system was used the cross range dispersion
was halved; one could the CEP went from a 4.5km radious circle to a
4.5km long and 2.25km wide ellipse. (though in reality the CEP was
already elliptical)

The effect of the double cross system (fales impact feedback) degraded
this by 12km.

However if the effect of the double cross system was excluded the CEP
was 6km.

The difference between practice and reality likely amounts to
manufacturing variation control in early missiles.

The CEP of H2X in daylight USAAF usage under cloud cover was 5 miles
(8km)

Worse

The standard way of measuring V2 impacts was with an Ar 234 with
sideways motion picture cameras synchronised to the impact or simply
post stricke 'carter analyssis' An radar and optical based system
based on the V2 telemetry system was being worked upon.

Jet flights over Britain were banned, in order to protect the secret
of the Jumo engines (obviously pointless given autonomous British
advances in this area)





The V-2 was intended to cause collateral damage, its aiming point
was the city centre, the German government boasted that it was
intended to cause terror.

So was the earlier 'dehousing' and 'area bombardment' campaign
intended to inflect terror which had been promoted to Churchill by
pathalogical racial hater of Germans, the Jew (Lord Cherwell)
Frederick Lindemann. Analysis of Luftwaffe bombing of British towns
subsequently showed that Lindemann;s 'demoralisation' simply wasn't
there.

The V2 was put in production about 9 months before von Brauns team
could sort out the the guidance issues.

A full system would have used either the SG-66 (productionised as the
SG-70 stablised inertial guidance platform instead of the LEV-3 or a
beam riding system capable of 0.05 degree accurcy for a re-entry
accuracy of
better than 500m.

If more accuracy was needed the winged version of the A4b could be
guided to impact or if it was over the horizon guided to within
minutes of impact.

The V1 was also getting a midcourse 'course corrector' guidance system
that worked by trilateration of a single pulse.

"Eunometic" wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 9:36 am, "Keith Willshaw" wrote:


The allies had the possibillity to develop technical means but it
seems the dehousing and area bombardment policy meant disinterest.

Which rather ignores the fact that they DID develop the technical
means in the form of Oboe, Gee, H2S, Loran etc while the
Germans kept right on area bombing.

The Germans had the technical means to blind bomb as well,
Sonnenschein a hyperbolic navigation system, Bernhard-Bernhardine
(virtually unjammable),

Sonnenschein, assuming Eunometic has managed to spell it correctly,
seems to be another vapour ware product.

Virtually unjammable is code for German, not a technical description
and the Bernhard system seems to be used by the fighters, not the
bombers. At half a degree accuracy it seems rather a stretch to call
it a blind bombing system, unless you are into area bombing.

Given how many German bombers were unable to find Coventry in
November 1940 and how many more could not find London in 1944
and the results of the night attacks from 1940 onwards the Luftwaffe
was area bombing quite readily, since Warsaw in fact.

Think of the Eunometic text as follows, the allies had Oboe, therefore
they could not have area bombed, and actual results are not to be
counted.

EGON and the Oboe like EGON-II as well as "Zyklops" a late war beam
riding system. All saw considerable use.

In case people are wondering EGON seems to have seen use for
fighter control, very little to none for bomber control. The second
version and Zyklops are the usual Eunometic flee to another
wonder device when the first one is shown not to match the
Eunometic specifications. Yet another wonder device that seems
to be rather rare and rather late.

http://www.gyges.dk/II%20JK%20spring%201945%202.htm

And not a range finding beam either.

"Considerable use" is Eunometic speak for a code name was
allocated.

EGON was to be replaced by FuG 226 Neuling since EGON was simply a
beefed up version of the Luftwaffe's standard IFF and by the end of
the war compromised.

Yes once again the war winning wonder weapon available some
time post war, and the standard German IFF was compromised
from mid war, after the allies were able to examine systems in
Luftwaffe aircraft that were captured or shot down, after the
Germans had managed to come up with a standard set. No
surprise there.

By the way FuG 226 had not got beyond a few test sets by the time
German surrendered. This counts in Eunometic terms, allied systems
under test do not count. It conflicts with the need to reel out a long list
of systems the Germans are supposed to have used, a list that has to
be much longer than the allies, and of course of much better devices.

H2S was mostly useless untill post war 1.5cm versions incorporating
more advanced signal processing.

Mostly useless is a Eunometic term for not German.

Where the allies failed was in the development of an accurate system
that works "over the horrison".

Such a system used Oboe like contollers in orbiting aircraft but was
never pushed: area bombardment was apparently to desirable.

By the way anyone else noted how Eunometic announces the allies
did not have a system then says they did? You see the idea is to
announce the conclusion, the allies and area bombing, then back
fill the facts to fit.

Note after September 1944 the allies had Oboe stations on the
German border, which covered the area Bomber Command was
normally after. March to the end of September 1944 Bomber
Command was doing a lot of attacks in France in support of the
invasion. In 1943 there was rather a lack of Mosquitoes and
the RAF did not want to put Oboe into heavy bombers.

For the Germans over the horison blind attacks would have used a
missile like the A4b with an postion update to an inertial guidance
system a minute before impact when the missile was still not below
line of sight.

Ah yes, the Germans never deployed an over the horizon system
but hey, they are allowed to dream of it so that counts. The V-2
above was supposed to be in line of sight, hardly over the horizon
but people must remember Eunometic definitions apply. The winged
V-2 was of course a long way from production as was the wonder
inertial guidance system, wonder what this guidance system will be
called.

At 200 nautical miles and a ground antenna 100 feet high it looks like
the V-2 would need to be falling at around 23,000 feet per minute to
impact a minute later. At 400 miles it is more like 100,000 feet per
minute.

The bulk of Bomber commands night time raids were conducted by H2S at
night, irrespective of whether it was the 9cm version or
the 3cm version the system had Circular Error probables of 5 miles.

Worse than the early V2.

Well no , 5 miles was BEFORE the technical aids were developed.

5 miles was what H2X achieved. 9cm H2S was worse.

No.

Read the results of the oxford experiment

People have, hence why they know Eunometic cannot handle the truth.

The Oxford experiment showed that H2X bombing:

"Forty-two percent of the
bombs had fallen more than
five miles from this point."

Dear Eunometic, the Oxford Experiment is quoting the USSBS
bombing accuracy report, and the above quote is the results
for total cloud cover, where all you can see is clouds.

People have been pointing out the difference between the above
quote and the actual results, which depended on the cloud cover,
also that the accuracy figures are for the last 4 months in 1944,
not the entire campaign.

But of course Eunometic does not want to cope with reality
so the idea is to simply announce the results for total cloud
cover and claim it is for all attacks.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/rad...ing-26720.html

The spectactular accuracies selectively quoted from the USSBS are for
ideal conditions.

The V2 on the other hand was technically CLOSE to achieving a
consistant 1km CEP: 5-7 times more accurate than H2S/H2X
in darkness and 100% cloud cover, creating 25-49 times less collateral
damage area.

It actually achieved 12 km

The dispersion in systematic test shots was 4.5km using inertial boost
phase only guidance.

You see the idea here is to announce the Eunometic version of good
test results for the V-2 and ignore the actual combat performance.
Note there is zero attempt to use good test performance for H2X,
that would be too much like compared with like for Eunometic.
Let alone H2X in combat conditions with say 4/10 cloud.

If the Viktoria-Hawaii beam system was used the cross range dispersion
was halved; one could the CEP went from a 4.5km radious circle to a
4.5km long and 2.25km wide ellipse. (though in reality the CEP was
already elliptical)

Again this seems to be more theory than reality and it seems Eunometic
is confusing the various versions of this system, yes yet another V-2
guidance system, this time with several versions. The least accurate
version was the one used in WWII.

Eunometic collects used and unused German guidance systems, then
enhances them as well as making them available in WWII. Collecting
belly button lint proved to much of an intellectual challenge. Hence
all the imaginary devices and/or performance.

The effect of the double cross system (fales impact feedback) degraded
this by 12km.

Actually it degraded things from around 6 to 12 km.

However if the effect of the double cross system was excluded the CEP
was 6km.

The difference between practice and reality likely amounts to
manufacturing variation control in early missiles.

It is quite amazing how the real results for the Germans are
always excused and of course we are to assume as the slave
labourers making the missiles were worked to death manufacturing
quality would go up. When the quality of German aviation products
were all going down.

The CEP of H2X in daylight USAAF usage under cloud cover was 5 miles
(8km)

Worse

Actually no, as has been stated many times since Eunometic is only
quoting the worst USAAF results, that is total cloud cover.

Think of it this way around 10% of V-2s simply vanished and others
came down offshore when fired against England. Now calculate the
error for these shots, after all that is 10+% of firings, announce this is
the true V-2 accuracy, which would be running into the hundreds of
km and you have the Eunometic version of accuracy, but applied to
the V-2, not the USAAF.

The standard way of measuring V2 impacts was with an Ar 234 with
sideways motion picture cameras synchronised to the impact or simply
post stricke 'carter analyssis' An radar and optical based system
based on the V2 telemetry system was being worked upon.

In case people are wondering the Ar234 flights seem to be rather
lacking and "worked on" includes having pencil marks on napkins.

Antwerp was a major target for the V-2, and effectively on the
front line. The US Army alone was moving 500,000 tons of
cargo through the port a month, increasing. Hence why it is easy
to see the gap between Eunometic and reality.

Jet flights over Britain were banned, in order to protect the secret
of the Jumo engines (obviously pointless given autonomous British
advances in this area)

In case people are wondering some Me262s did run flights over
England as did some Ar234. The reconnaissance photographs
brought back on one case helped the V-1 deception.

Normally Eunometic boasts about these not being intercepted.

The V-2 was intended to cause collateral damage, its aiming point
was the city centre, the German government boasted that it was
intended to cause terror.

So was the earlier 'dehousing' and 'area bombardment' campaign

Done by the Luftwaffe against England and others, hence the RAF
felt it had no barriers when it came to bombing Germany.

intended to inflect terror which had been promoted to Churchill by
pathalogical racial hater of Germans, the Jew (Lord Cherwell)
Frederick Lindemann.

In case people are wondering Lindemann was born in Baden-Baden
in Germany, son of a German who had become a British citizen and
an American mother. Part of his schooling was in Darmstadt and
the University of Berlin where he received his PhD.

Hence why Eunometic hates him so much, in Eunometic eyes
Lindemann is a traitor. As for his religion it is notable how much
Eunometic thinks it matters but whether he actually practiced the
religion is another matter (Nazis of course do not care about
whether a person worshipped, only if one of their grandparents
did). There are some claims that Lindemann hated Nazi Germany.
Eunometic tends to drop the Nazis from German history. Of course
the ideology is reinstated in Eunometic's own mimicry of Nazi
terms, hence "racial" and "the Jew"

Analysis of Luftwaffe bombing of British towns
subsequently showed that Lindemann;s 'demoralisation' simply wasn't
there.

No, only the effects that showed infrastructure loss usually cost more
production than factory damage.

The V2 was put in production about 9 months before von Brauns team
could sort out the the guidance issues.

By the way the V-2 was in combat for around 8 months before the
end of the war. The 9 months claim seems to be part of the attempt
to paint the V-2 team as really peaceful.

And as usual for Eunometic trying to build better German guidance
systems counts as if it was in mass use.

A full system would have used either the SG-66 (productionised as the
SG-70 stablised inertial guidance platform instead of the LEV-3 or a
beam riding system capable of 0.05 degree accurcy for a re-entry
accuracy of better than 500m.

Ah yes, once again we flee towards another V-2 guidance system,
or systems, with of course wonder performance.

Productionised is Eunometic code for some hardware was built
and tested.

If more accuracy was needed the winged version of the A4b could be
guided to impact or if it was over the horizon guided to within
minutes of impact.

You see the idea here is to not only create a ready to go V-2 that
was actually nowhere near production but add guidance systems
that were further behind while giving them enhanced accuracy.

The V1 was also getting a midcourse 'course corrector' guidance system
that worked by trilateration of a single pulse.

Yes folks, wonder guidance systems all round. Not used, which is
why Eunometic loves them, they can be claimed to be wonder and
of course all set to enter mass production now, as long as you define
now as sometime within the next decade.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.