Future Club Training Gliders

Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 17, 9:24 am, Brad wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:18 am, tienshanman tienshanman.



wrote:
RN;740605 Wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.
We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.
Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .
John
As someone who not long ago finished glider training I can add this: I
looked long and hard for an operation that did not use Schweizers.
Reason: they are ugly & uncomfortable and just did not fit my idea what
soaring is all about. Finally I found a place with a G103 and was
happy. If you want to attract people, especially young people you'd
better get some hot looking trainers, oh, and preferably some hot
looking women. Otherwise you're dead in the water.....and continue
projecting the imagine of soaring as an activity for those one step away
from a retirement home.
--
tienshanman
actually, those pilots "one step away from a retirement home" usually
fly the newest hottest gliders. cruel irony? perhaps.............all
those poor hot chicks out there have to reconsider their options eh?

Brad

Nope you already missed them, they are hanging out with the cool hot
paraglider guys.


LOL. With apologies to the ladies here, my club shared an airport with a
commercial parachute school for a bunch of years. I can tell you that,
without any doubt, the ....uhmmm ... errr ... "scenery" was *much*
better on their side of the field - especially near the pool.

We also got jaded to the point that an ambulance rolling onto the field
barely got a second glance - but that's another story.

Tony

LOL. With apologies to the ladies here

There's ladies here? O_O

RN wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

Sonex Xenos perhaps? I have no experience with it and am not sure what the
general consensus is (I doubt there is much informed opinion on them since
not too many have been built, so few would have first-hand experience; but
unless I am missing something their performance seems more than adequate
for training purposes.)

Upfront new: ~US$34,000 + ~1200 club man-hours to build.
Side-by-side seating: good for training?
Motorglider: Dispense with towplane costs.
Experimental: Lower part and labor costs.
Sonex provides directions on how to get it registered with the FAA as a
glider.

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/...Comparison.jpg

On Nov 7, 11:02*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
RN wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

Sonex Xenos perhaps? I have no experience with it and am not sure what the
general consensus is (I doubt there is much informed opinion on them since
not too many have been built, so few would have first-hand experience; but
unless I am missing something their performance seems more than adequate
for training purposes.)

Upfront new: ~US$34,000 + ~1200 club man-hours to build.
Side-by-side seating: good for training?
Motorglider: Dispense with towplane costs.
Experimental: Lower part and labor costs.
Sonex provides directions on how to get it registered with the FAA as a
glider.

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/...Comparison.jpg

With a motorglider you do not "dispense with towplane costs" you
"replace towplane costs with motorglider costs" (and quite possibly
many more issues).

I would be surprised if a 24:1 (i.e. non-glider), homebuilt,
lightweight aluminum glider in a tail dragger configuration is meet
many of the practical needs of most glider clubs. I wonder what
getting insurance coverage for instruction on that would take.

The question was to replace L-13 Blaniks and looking for practical
experience. Is there anybody in the USA using any motorglider for
primary training? Can they share cost and operational experiences? How
many students per year go through to complete their licenses?

---

Wait, I know how about a ASK-21 and a towplane (or winch).

Darryl

On Nov 8, 12:30*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Nov 7, 11:02*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:



RN wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost ..

Sonex Xenos perhaps? I have no experience with it and am not sure what the
general consensus is (I doubt there is much informed opinion on them since
not too many have been built, so few would have first-hand experience; but
unless I am missing something their performance seems more than adequate
for training purposes.)

Upfront new: ~US$34,000 + ~1200 club man-hours to build.
Side-by-side seating: good for training?
Motorglider: Dispense with towplane costs.
Experimental: Lower part and labor costs.
Sonex provides directions on how to get it registered with the FAA as a
glider.

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/...Comparison.jpg

With a motorglider you do not "dispense with towplane costs" you
"replace towplane costs with motorglider costs" (and quite possibly
many more issues).

I would be surprised if a 24:1 (i.e. non-glider), homebuilt,
lightweight aluminum glider in a tail dragger configuration is meet
many of the practical needs of most glider clubs. I wonder what
getting insurance coverage for instruction on that would take.

The question was to replace L-13 Blaniks and looking for practical
experience. Is there anybody in the USA using any motorglider for
primary training? Can they share cost and operational experiences? How
many students per year go through to complete their licenses?

---

Wait, I know how about a ASK-21 and a towplane (or winch).

Darryl

Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

On Nov 8, 8:09*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:



Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

People need to just look at that graph for while and then ask
themselves if continuing to do what we've been doing is the right
course. There's a term for doing the same thing over and over while
expecting a different result.

Blaming the customer for not liking what we're selling isn't a
solution. But it's heard a lot - in bankruptcy court.

On Nov 8, 7:09*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/


Whatever we did in 1996, we should do it again. Can anyone explain the
spike upward in glider ratings?

9B

At 21:24 08 November 2010, Andy wrote:

Whatever we did in 1996, we should do it again. Can anyone explain the
spike upward in glider ratings?

Doesn't this curve track the general state of the economy, to some
extent? Think back to the late 90s - the dot-com bubble hadn't burst
yet, and real estate values were still going only upwards, and would never
go in the other direction. People had money to spend on optional
activities.

Or maybe not.

Jim Beckman

Whatever we did in 1996, we should do it again. Can anyone explain the
spike upward in glider ratings?

9B

The years 1992-2000 saw a huge increase in discretionary spending by
the American population as the stock market soared. Soaring was a
beneficiary of this spending but certainly didn't do anything to
promote it.

2C

On Nov 8, 2:24*pm, Andy wrote:
On Nov 8, 7:09*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:



Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

Whatever we did in 1996, we should do it again. Can anyone explain the
spike upward in glider ratings?

9B

Also note the ratios of ab-initio to add-on ratings in that period and
now.

Perhaps the world wide web, increasing costs of flying power,
generation of WWII/post WWII pilots losing medicals, increase
disposable income, 125% loan to value home equity loans?