All ATPS ATP rating?

Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
to go to one of the better locations.

TIA,
Pete

Pilot Puppy shop. One local examiner says they push them out as fast as
possible, quality be damned, just pass the test.
Michelle

Peter MacPherson wrote:

Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
to go to one of the better locations.

TIA,
Pete





--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

"Michelle P" wrote in message
k.net...
Pilot Puppy shop. One local examiner says they push them out as fast as
possible, quality be damned, just pass the test.
Michelle

Peter MacPherson wrote:

Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
to go to one of the better locations.

Just because I love to play Devil's advocate...

My CFII never had a good thing to say about things like the PIC 10-day
Instrument Rating, and the place where I got my seaplane rating made no
bones about their distaste for certain well-known floatplane schools down in
Florida.

Both could make an argument as to why- my CFII felt that an instrument
student in the Northeast ought to be trained in all four seasons, and in
actual conditions as much as possible, and you just couldn't do that in ten
days. My seaplane school made a point of teaching more than the barebones
basics the PTS requires, as they felt that a pilot who knew only the PTS
could not in fact be a safe seaplane pilot.

Now, is anyone alleging that All ATPS has an "in" with an examiner who cuts
their students slack? Otherwise we have to concede that their students are
at least passing their checkrides honestly, and it's the same PTS everyone
else uses.

Local guys and smaller shops always grouse about bigger assembly-line
operations because they can't compete with their prices. Sometimes the local
guys do in fact provide better quality, too. I'm glad I went with my grumpy
old local CFII and spent 14 months getting my IR, now that I'm done with it.
But as I'm contemplating moving past that, I'm also starting to see the
advantages of the "puppy store" for some things. Heck, my grouchy CFII even
suggested that I "go to Florida to get your commercial done fast and
cheaper, them come back here to do your CFI with me."

I'd be interested of course to hear why the training approach taken by All
ATPs is worse than the way most ratings get done everywhere else anyway.
Let's not argue perfection- many of the "traditional" schools/instructors
out there stink just as bad as the big places and are more expensive while
they're at it.

Best,
-cwk.

"C Kingsbury" wrote
Both could make an argument as to why- my CFII felt that an instrument
student in the Northeast ought to be trained in all four seasons, and in
actual conditions as much as possible, and you just couldn't do that in ten
days.

Training in actual is great when you can (I certainly do, every chance
I get) but there are places where you just CAN'T. In places like
Arizona, there is basically no IMC you can fly in a Skyhawk. Now
what? Training in all 4 seasons means you need to take a full year
for the instrument. Lots of people are on a tighter schedule.

Finally, there is this issue - an experienced VFR pilot already knows
a lot about the weather. He can probably do just fine without being
exposed to all 4 seasons. A low time inexperienced pilot is another
story - but I don't see why he needs an instrument rating anyway.

My seaplane school made a point of teaching more than the barebones
basics the PTS requires, as they felt that a pilot who knew only the PTS
could not in fact be a safe seaplane pilot.

And they are DEMONSTRABLY right. If the training was adequate, you
could rent a seaplane solo. A flight school that will rent you a
sepalane solo is probably providing adequate seaplane training. One
that won't is not. It's really that simple. Will the seaplane school
you attended rent you the plane solo?

Now, is anyone alleging that All ATPS has an "in" with an examiner who cuts
their students slack?

I've certainly seen such allegations floated in the Houston area. The
examiner they used to use the most has in fact lost his designation.

Otherwise we have to concede that their students are
at least passing their checkrides honestly, and it's the same PTS everyone
else uses.

Look, we all know there is lots of room for interpretation in the PTS.
And when an examiner KNOWS that he's doing a checkride with someone
who is not going to be able to exercise the privileges of the
certificate without a lot more training, there's certainly little
incentive to flunk the guy.

Most examiners I know really use the "smoking hole" standard - will
this guy be able to exercise the privileges he is seeking without
making a smoking hole? If so, why not give him the ticket?

In the case of an ATP rating in a small airplane, there are no
privileges. It's a vanity rating. Yeah, I'm a big man, I'm an ATP.
With that and five bucks, you can get a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.
Maybe it will help get a job, but you're still not getting into the
left seat without plenty of experience in the right and significant
formal training.

Local guys and smaller shops always grouse about bigger assembly-line
operations because they can't compete with their prices. Sometimes the local
guys do in fact provide better quality, too. I'm glad I went with my grumpy
old local CFII and spent 14 months getting my IR, now that I'm done with it.
But as I'm contemplating moving past that, I'm also starting to see the
advantages of the "puppy store" for some things. Heck, my grouchy CFII even
suggested that I "go to Florida to get your commercial done fast and
cheaper, them come back here to do your CFI with me."

You know, I did a "minimum effort" commercial multi. I did it with an
AllATP's grad. In one way, I really admire her ability. She knew
EXACTLY how much training we needed to do so that I would be able to
just squeak by on the ride with that examiner (the one who lost his
designation) on a bad day. I had a bad day and squeaked through. I
couldn't do that for a student. I just don't know how. We train till
you know it, and then the checkride is a non-event.

I'd be interested of course to hear why the training approach taken by All
ATPs is worse than the way most ratings get done everywhere else anyway.

Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
live, practicing ATP - meaning someone who actually had a job that
requires an ATP - pilot in command of a large passenger-carrying
crewed aircraft operating under a certificate. I would not have
gotten that at AllATP's - and it made all the difference in the world
in understanding what being one was all about, what the checkride was
really traying to test, etc. I could have passed the checkride
without that - but I wouldn't have gotten much out of it. As it was,
I learned important things about MANAGING workload rather than just
HANDLING it. I learned about the difference between maneuvers
training and LOFT, and why (surprisingly) most errors are made at the
LOFT level. I learned things about utilizing a copilot - even one not
qualified in the aircraft - to enhance safety.

I know people who got the rating through AllATP's - and it's not part
of what they learn. They learn to pass the ATP checkride.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"C Kingsbury" wrote

My seaplane school made a point of teaching more than the barebones
basics the PTS requires, as they felt that a pilot who knew only the PTS
could not in fact be a safe seaplane pilot.

And they are DEMONSTRABLY right. If the training was adequate, you
could rent a seaplane solo. A flight school that will rent you a
sepalane solo is probably providing adequate seaplane training. One
that won't is not. It's really that simple. Will the seaplane school
you attended rent you the plane solo?

No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll insure
you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best five
or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
compares to what I got up North.

With that and five bucks, you can get a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.

Only if it's a small one...

I'd be interested of course to hear why the training approach taken by
All
ATPs is worse than the way most ratings get done everywhere else anyway.

Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
live, practicing ATP

Well, this brings us right back to one of the central iornies of the
aviation world- that most of the training is done by the least-experienced
people.

I used them for my Multi/Commercial add-on. I was *very* disappointed.
Their planes were fantastic, their instructor abysmal. He was
(literally) the worst instructor I have ever flown with, by far. I
left halfway through their program when it became apparent he was an
incompetent instructor (although a fine pilot). Worse, AllATPS didn't
care. I talked with some of their management about it, expressing my
disappointment, and their attitude was basically "Well, we have your
money. We'll send you what remainder that you are due. We really don't
care that our instructor sucked, and that you didn't get what you paid
for. Kiss off".

Then it took them over a month to refund the (small) remainder of my
money. Overall, I would definitely not recommend them. I've worked
with 6 different flight schools in various capacities (both as a CFI
and as a student) and found AllATPS the least satisfactory. They are
the only one I would tell people to avoid.

My advice would be to not use them. I went to their Bowling Green, KY
location...so others may be better. But the attitude of management was
what convinced me that I would never recommend them. If their
management doesn't give a damn about student satisfaction, that
attitude will filter down to the instructors. As in my case, it
certainly did.

Cheers,

Cap


"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message news:sbTcd.414720$Fg5.353254@attbi_s53...
Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
to go to one of the better locations.

TIA,
Pete

"C Kingsbury" wrote
No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll insure
you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best five
or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
compares to what I got up North.

Bet you the beverage of your choice, next time I'm up in your neck of
the woods, that you will learn things in that 10 hour checkout that
you have no idea about today.

Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
live, practicing ATP

Well, this brings us right back to one of the central iornies of the
aviation world- that most of the training is done by the least-experienced
people.

But you're missing something important. High quality training IS
available. What's more, it's not even particularly expensive. Better
instructors don't often charge more.

There is an FBO you can go to in the Houston area where you can get
tailwheel and aerobatic lessons from a rather unique individual. He
is a retired test pilot who has flown every piston fighter on the
inventory. Not only is he a hot stick, he's also a rocket scientist.
He was also an aerobatic competitor. In spite of his military (air
guard) background he is the nicest, quietest, calmest instructor you
will ever fly with. He NEVER raises his voice or belittles a student.
He has a knack for explaining things such that it's instantly and
immediately clear to you exactly what you should do. He can do this
with a wide variety of students. He has no fear - he will let you
screw up a tailwheel landing very badly - but as log as you keep it in
the middle half of the runway he will not touch the controls. If you
can't manage that, he will calmly take the controls and the airplane
will INSTANTLY be under control - and then he will explain to you
exactly what you did wrong, why you did it wrong, and how not to do it
again.

Flying with him costs exactly the same as flying with the
run-of-the-mill timebuilder at the flight school. But you need to
know who he is to ask for him - otherwise you will get the
timebuilder.

Over the course of my flying career, I've gotten a lot of instruction.
Whenever possible, I've made it a point to seek out the best
available. Every time I've done otherwise, I've been sorry.

Going to a place like AllATP's pretty much ensures you won't be
getting the best available instruction. Going to your local FBO and
taking the first instructor they offer you likely won't be any better.
But high quality instruction IS out there.

Michael

Not a float plane driver but wouldn't a much better guage of experience be
TO/Landings. I mean the guy that stays in the patten and does take offs and
landings for 10 hours is going to have a LOT more skill than the guy that
launches 2 or 3 times and flys max distance to another lake each time and
lands.

I kind of feel the same way about a lot of big iron pilots that have xx,000
hours but only one TO/L cycle every 8 or so hours. Let's face it who's the
more current pilot him or the commuter pilot with 4 or 5 TO/L cycles every
working day?

Gig


"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"C Kingsbury" wrote
No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll
insure
you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best
five
or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
compares to what I got up North.

Bet you the beverage of your choice, next time I'm up in your neck of
the woods, that you will learn things in that 10 hour checkout that
you have no idea about today.

"Gig Giacona" wrote

I kind of feel the same way about a lot of big iron pilots that have
xx,000 hours but only one TO/L cycle every 8 or so hours. Let's face
it who's the more current pilot him or the commuter pilot with 4 or 5
TO/L cycles every working day?

:-) :-) During my first month of flying the line as a B-707 PIC,
I logged 94 hours and 101 take-offs and landings.
At the end, flying the B-727 on the Northeast shuttle, I was flying
6 hours/day and logging 2-3 landings/day.

Bob Moore

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
"Gig Giacona" wrote

I kind of feel the same way about a lot of big iron pilots that have
xx,000 hours but only one TO/L cycle every 8 or so hours. Let's face
it who's the more current pilot him or the commuter pilot with 4 or 5
TO/L cycles every working day?

:-) :-) During my first month of flying the line as a B-707 PIC,
I logged 94 hours and 101 take-offs and landings.
At the end, flying the B-727 on the Northeast shuttle, I was flying
6 hours/day and logging 2-3 landings/day.

Bob Moore


But what did you second month in the 707 look like?