A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

§ 61.87 (i)



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 8th 20, 04:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default § 61.87 (i)

Question for CFI-Gs

Was more or less told that I'm laboring under a gross misapprehension of fact by a newly minted glider instructor with regard to the above FAR.

I am new to sailplanes. Been flying since 1976 so I've probably been flying longer than this guy is old. Haven't asked, don't really give a ****.

But.....trying to keep an open mind. When I read the basis of the rule making and of course the Soaring Safety Foundation stuff it was pretty clear why they included:

"procedures for assembly/disassembly of the glider"

Or so I thought until the CFI-G set me straight. Apparently, fatal accidents, or the training that might prevent them, is something I've totally taken out of context. It's not an issue at all.

So.....things that I did notice -

Students who soloed without ever getting training on assembly/disassembly of a sailplane. Is it a huge deal if you're doing nothing but flying club ships? Maybe not. But that isn't what the FAR says. It's also not what several well written books on the subject (Some of which are actually sold by said club) say either.

Funny, in a way, but I have to use this quote -

"They should at least read the regs to be aware of what FAR they're violating."

Indeed.

What do CFI-Gs do? Everybody skip that part? Somebody skip it? Should it skipped at all and if so, why? Since half post anonymously this is a great opportunity for learning and candor.
  #2  
Old August 8th 20, 04:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SoaringXCellence
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 385
Default § 61.87 (i)

Shaun,

You're right! It's often overlooked for various reasons. Most commonly (that I have seen) is that the CFI-G hasn't reviewed the Student pilot solo requirements in a while. I recall that a few years ago there were 15 requirements: now it looks like there are 19. The long-time CFI-G tend to miss things like that which have changed in the last few years. The FARs aren't quite as static as we think.

When I was a Designated Examiner, it was not unusual to find those kinds of omissions in logbooks.

Mike
  #3  
Old August 8th 20, 05:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default § 61.87 (i)

Not a CFIG, but our expectation is that glider assembly and rigging is taught from day one of instruction. It starts with preflight inspection in the early flights discussing what to look for in terms of correct rigging and safety clips, latches, etc. It then progresses to how the glider is assembled or disassembled to ensure that it is done correctly. Pre-solo is usually inspections and theoretical. Pre check-ride the student should have at least one experience derigging and rigging the training glider to be used for the check-ride.
  #4  
Old August 8th 20, 05:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 53
Default § 61.87 (i)

You are spot on that this is very important and your apprehension is not only founded, but could save your life. Although I have retired from instructing in gliders years ago, I always instructed my students the importance of a thorough preflight as if the glider/club ship landed out the day before and was reassembled after getting back to home field. Mistakes happen, controls improperly connected, safely pins missing.
Gliders are designed to come apart and then reassembled. Club ships, trainers ... doesn’t happen often. People get rusty on taking things apart , putting them back together. Parts get misplaced, lost, damage. This is why the FAA includes this training on the advice of the SSA forefathers, leaders, instructors. And well founded.
So, what do you do? Ask your instructor to explain the assembly and disassembly procedures of the ships you fly. Or request to see the ops manual, maintenance manual. Once you know what to look for, it only adds a minute or two to the preflight.
It has been over thirty years, but I do remember walking my students thru the process and what to check for. On everything I checked them out in.
Trust but verify.
Get it done, be safe.
R

  #5  
Old August 8th 20, 05:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default § 61.87 (i)

On Friday, August 7, 2020 at 10:21:18 PM UTC-6, wrote:
You are spot on that this is very important and your apprehension is not only founded, but could save your life. Although I have retired from instructing in gliders years ago, I always instructed my students the importance of a thorough preflight as if the glider/club ship landed out the day before and was reassembled after getting back to home field. Mistakes happen, controls improperly connected, safely pins missing.
Gliders are designed to come apart and then reassembled. Club ships, trainers ... doesn’t happen often. People get rusty on taking things apart , putting them back together. Parts get misplaced, lost, damage. This is why the FAA includes this training on the advice of the SSA forefathers, leaders, instructors. And well founded.
So, what do you do? Ask your instructor to explain the assembly and disassembly procedures of the ships you fly. Or request to see the ops manual, maintenance manual. Once you know what to look for, it only adds a minute or two to the preflight.
It has been over thirty years, but I do remember walking my students thru the process and what to check for. On everything I checked them out in.
Trust but verify.
Get it done, be safe.
R


Serious question: how many people have had training on how to take apart or put together a 2-33? In most cases, once it is assembled, it stays assembled for YEARS, either tied out in the off season or stored in a hanger--assembled in both cases. Many glider clubs, especially those struggling with finances, don't have fancy glass training ships, but get by with the venerable work-horse--the 2-33.

Now that doesn't excuse not being educated on how a sailplane is put together, but it does make it a lot harder when there is no real-world experience that students can participate in. Fortunately, in my training, I was able to assist another club member in the assembly of his private glider.
  #6  
Old August 8th 20, 01:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default § 61.87 (i)

Fortunately, in my training, I was able to assist another club member in the assembly of his private glider.

Careful, 61.87i-13 says the glider, not a glider. Just saying.

Thinking back, by the time I soled, we had done an annual on the glider in question, which sorted out assembly.

Given a choice between a 'performed 61.87i' solo signoff checking everything on the checklist and thinking if the overall situation is a good idea, choosing both sounds good.


  #7  
Old August 8th 20, 03:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Piet Barber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default § 61.87 (i)


What do CFI-Gs do? Everybody skip that part? Somebody skip it? Should it skipped at all and if so, why? Since half post anonymously this is a great opportunity for learning and candor.


Hello.

What do we do as a club? Skyline Soaring Club has a training syllabus, that all of our instructors are required to follow. It has a list of all the 61.87 requirements that must be documented. If it's in 61.87, it's in our syllabus.

http://skylinesoaring.org/TRAINING/Syllabus/

We have it computerized. Every time the flight instructor and student fly together, the flight log database detects that there was an instructional flight. The instructor is emailed a request to fill out a flight lesson record. The instructor selects which lesson plan entries were done, scored on a 1-4 rating. The instructor writes an essay describing what was done. At 11 pm, the instruction report gets mailed to the student and all of the other instructors.

Each of the items in the syllabus have a lesson plan, describing what is expected of the student, what is expected of the instructor, external references.

All of the items in 61.87 are tracked in the form of a progress bar. When the progress bar gets all the way to the right, the student has met all of the 61.87 requirements, and will be ready to solo once an instructor thinks the student can "put it all together" . The whole student record is stored in a database, and can be viewed by the student, or any instructor. If student Jeff has been flying with Bob, instructor Mike can get caught up on all of Jeff's progress by looking at the instruction report. We have 15 years of instruction reports and flight logs to see how long it takes for us to get a student through the program.

Skyline Soaring Club's syllabus is used by several other clubs around the country. The contents of the lesson plans are free for your club to adapt to its needs.

The syllabus was envisioned as a way for us to make sure that all the checkboxes got ticked off before a student was able to go flying solo. We trade students between instructors as a normal part of business. If you are the instructor taking over from another guy, do you make your student do everything in 61.87 all over again? It could take weeks or months to get everything accomplished. What do you do to make sure that everything in 61.87 was covered? Can you really decipher that logbook entry?

Consider this scenario: I had a student break up a glider in an accident. Once the FAA comes to investigate, there's no documentation that I ever did training with the student in an area that was a contributing factor to the crash. Sure, I did that lesson with the student several times -- BUT IT WAS NEVER WRITTEN DOWN. I don't ever want to be put into that position.

If yours is a club that has 2 instructors, and a student spends 100% of his time with only one instructor, the online syllabus is still useful. It's useful because that student is eventually going to fly with another instructor, and having a detailed training record online is SO much better than awful chicken scratch in a logbook that has not nearly enough space to document everything.

To answer your question, "We don't skip that part. It's a part of the training syllabus. Every club should have a training syllabus. If yours is a club that thinks that a syllabus is for sissies, reconsider your choice of clubs. Try to find one that doesn't have these macho, invulnerability or anti-authority hazardous attitudes. "
  #8  
Old August 8th 20, 04:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default § 61.87 (i)

Just a note that for clubs that do not fly in the winter (mine typically doesn't from late November to March-ish) they disassemble/reassemble the fleet twice a year.

This allows a great opportunity for the pre-solo pilots to lend a hand and fulfill this reg. Not to mention a great opportunity for a group get together plus photo-op!
  #9  
Old August 8th 20, 05:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Piet Barber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default § 61.87 (i)

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 11:11:40 AM UTC-4, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
Just a note that for clubs that do not fly in the winter (mine typically doesn't from late November to March-ish) they disassemble/reassemble the fleet twice a year.

This allows a great opportunity for the pre-solo pilots to lend a hand and fulfill this reg. Not to mention a great opportunity for a group get together plus photo-op!


We once had a hangar door that was jammed shut for longer than it should have been. It took weeks to get replacement parts to make it work again!

We couldn't bring ourselves to leave our ASK-21 out exposed to the elements while this hangar maintenance problem was being sorted out. We got a lot of experience putting the ASK-21 together in the morning, and putting it away at night. It can be done with three people, but usually 5 were holding onto one wing at a time.
  #10  
Old August 8th 20, 07:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Hightime
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default § 61.87 (i)

Never derigg unless it’s absolutely necessary. If it’s in the training syllabus wait until derigging must take place to check that box , never before . Derigging /rigging is the opposite of fun so no wonder nobody want to do it
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.