Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061120422616807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 19:00:00 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061116042375249-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 12:39:10 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

No. Barrel rolls do NOT go negative generally. If you went negative you
would change the roll arc and destroy the roll. You can unload to 0 g
through the top however without destroying the roll arc, but if you do,
you have to reapply positive g almost immediately as you pass through
inverted to regain the roll arc. As I said, you can do a barrel roll at
any positive g; as tight or as little as the flight envelope for the
aircraft will allow up to 90 degrees of flight path direction change at
the roll apex.
Generally the roll profile will be the application of positive g above
+1
from the roll initiation (either from level flight or from a slight dive
offset to gain energy if needed) followed by coordinated roll and back
pressure into the roll arc maintaining positive g with varying back
pressure to maintain the roll arc through the roll and through the
recovery back to the entry heading.
You can NOT at any time during a barrel roll, allow the g to go negative
as doing so will instantly destroy the arc of the roll.
Dudley Henriques


No it won't, and yes you can.

I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect.
Dudley Henriques


Certainly not. If you think you cannot roll the wings of an aircraft, and
remain in total control of the g loading, you are totally incorrect.

If you want to argue the proper name for this manuver is not a barrel roll,
that's another topic, and I would agree. Many people incorrectly refer to
all rolls as barrel rolls. But then we would just be nit picking, wouldn't
we.

"Maxwell" wrote in
news

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061120422616807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 19:00:00 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061116042375249-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 12:39:10 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

No. Barrel rolls do NOT go negative generally. If you went negative
you would change the roll arc and destroy the roll. You can unload
to 0 g through the top however without destroying the roll arc, but
if you do, you have to reapply positive g almost immediately as you
pass through inverted to regain the roll arc. As I said, you can
do a barrel roll at any positive g; as tight or as little as the
flight envelope for the aircraft will allow up to 90 degrees of
flight path direction change at the roll apex.
Generally the roll profile will be the application of positive g
above +1
from the roll initiation (either from level flight or from a slight
dive offset to gain energy if needed) followed by coordinated roll
and back pressure into the roll arc maintaining positive g with
varying back pressure to maintain the roll arc through the roll and
through the recovery back to the entry heading.
You can NOT at any time during a barrel roll, allow the g to go
negative as doing so will instantly destroy the arc of the roll.
Dudley Henriques


No it won't, and yes you can.

I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect.
Dudley Henriques


Certainly not. If you think you cannot roll the wings of an aircraft,
and remain in total control of the g loading, you are totally
incorrect.

If you want to argue the proper name for this manuver is not a barrel
roll, that's another topic, and I would agree. Many people incorrectly
refer to all rolls as barrel rolls. But then we would just be nit
picking, wouldn't we.


Dudley's right, you're wrong,. You're twisting the argument to suit
yourself, changeing the language and rules as you go...






Bertie

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife
edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft
is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are indeed
in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with top rudder
and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination has to be
perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must be
complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a
different purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are
flying a knife edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the
aircraft is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are
indeed in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge
with top rudder and forward neutral stick; this control pressure
combination has to be perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must
be complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being
crossed. Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a
new primary student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.


All controls in the appropriate postion for the desired flight path and
attitude.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Maybe in reality, he's actualy Jerry Lewis..




Naw, JL already has been quasi-reincarnated in the form of Glenn Beck, a
talk show host on US TV (not knowing where you are to recognize that, ya may
be a bonefide Oz Bunyip!) - I expect him to break into fake french gibberish
speak anytime during an interview. d:~))

On 2007-06-11 23:05:47 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061120422616807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 19:00:00 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061116042375249-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 12:39:10 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

No. Barrel rolls do NOT go negative generally. If you went negative you
would change the roll arc and destroy the roll. You can unload to 0 g
through the top however without destroying the roll arc, but if you do,
you have to reapply positive g almost immediately as you pass through
inverted to regain the roll arc. As I said, you can do a barrel roll at
any positive g; as tight or as little as the flight envelope for the
aircraft will allow up to 90 degrees of flight path direction change at
the roll apex.
Generally the roll profile will be the application of positive g above
+1
from the roll initiation (either from level flight or from a slight dive
offset to gain energy if needed) followed by coordinated roll and back
pressure into the roll arc maintaining positive g with varying back
pressure to maintain the roll arc through the roll and through the
recovery back to the entry heading.
You can NOT at any time during a barrel roll, allow the g to go negative
as doing so will instantly destroy the arc of the roll.
Dudley Henriques


No it won't, and yes you can.

I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect.
Dudley Henriques


Certainly not. If you think you cannot roll the wings of an aircraft, and
remain in total control of the g loading, you are totally incorrect.

Not sure what you mean here as your comment refers to me or what I have
said, but I can assure you that you most certainly CAN roll an airplane
and maintain complete control of the g. If a pilot can't do this, I
would strongly suggest that rolling the airplane not be attempted :-)

If you want to argue the proper name for this manuver is not a barrel roll,
that's another topic, and I would agree. Many people incorrectly refer to
all rolls as barrel rolls. But then we would just be nit picking, wouldn't
we.

Any roll performed by an airplane through 3 dimensional space is a
barrel roll by definition.
Not sure again exactly what you mean by your comment.
DH

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...

Dudley's right, you're wrong,. You're twisting the argument to suit
yourself, changeing the language and rules as you go...




No I'm not.
Reference my post from this morning.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Maxwell"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?



I'm not talking about Bob's tea trick. Obvoiusly, positive Gs and
coordination is the key there. And I'm not sure I understand or agree with
your post. But I think it might be possible we having a terminology issue
here with the definition of a barrel roll.

I fully admit barrel rolls as defined by most pilots require more than
"exactly 1g", and usually a little negative, depending on the desired
flight
path. Also, doing a near 1g roll as I mentioned, more than 1g will be
required to set up the manuver, and return to level flight afterwards. But
I
disagree that it one needs to deviate much from 1g to roll the wings of an
aircraft 360 degrees if flying an arc. Depending on the arc and corkscrew
of
your flight path, you can roll with very little if not no stress on the
aircraft.

On 2007-06-11 23:13:58 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife
edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft
is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are indeed
in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with top rudder
and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination has to be
perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must be
complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.

Surely.
Coordinated as that applies to control pressures while in flight
defines ANY application of controls in ANY DIRECTION where the pressure
applied to each individual control achieves a specific desired
resulting change in the flight path of the aircraft .
A non slipping or skidding ball centered turn entry or exit is a
coordinated control movement. In this case the control pressures
applied are in the same direction and uncrossed.
Conversely, a deliberate slip or a slow roll is also a coordinated
control movement resulting in a specific change and effect in the
flight path of the aircraft. In this case the controls are not applied
in the same direction and are said to be crossed.
Again, crossed controls does NOT mean uncoordinated.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061123263150073-dhenriques@rcncom...
Certainly not. If you think you cannot roll the wings of an aircraft, and
remain in total control of the g loading, you are totally incorrect.

Not sure what you mean here as your comment refers to me or what I have
said, but I can assure you that you most certainly CAN roll an airplane
and maintain complete control of the g. If a pilot can't do this, I would
strongly suggest that rolling the airplane not be attempted :-)

If you want to argue the proper name for this manuver is not a barrel
roll,
that's another topic, and I would agree. Many people incorrectly refer to
all rolls as barrel rolls. But then we would just be nit picking,
wouldn't
we.

Any roll performed by an airplane through 3 dimensional space is a barrel
roll by definition.
Not sure again exactly what you mean by your comment.
DH



Can you roll the wings of an aircraft 360 and hold 0g? How about 1g? How
about -1g?

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...

Dudley's right, you're wrong,. You're twisting the argument to suit
yourself, changeing the language and rules as you go...




No I'm not.
Reference my post from this morning.

Yeah right..

Bertie