FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

(journeyman) wrote

Surely you mean the C-182RG is both complex & high perf. The
C-182 is only "high performance". The C-177RG is, of course,
"complex" but not "high performance".

Yep! A slip of the fingers. :-)

Bob Moore

Ok, I think I understand now and I'm going to try and summarize what I've
gathered from reading the other posts in this thread. Thanks for
everyone who answered me even though I know this dead horse has been
beaten in the past. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to
stay current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?

Yes, the pilot flying in simulated instrument conditions will log PIC
because he is the sole manipulator of the controls and I will log PIC
because prior to the flight I was designated as the PIC and the safety
pilot. I can only log PIC if I'm properly rated for the aircraft that we
are flying.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance
aircraft? I thought that an endorsement was required for planes with
retractable gear and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a
greater than 200 horsepower engine. In my log book I see an
endorsement line for the HP (there isn't a FAR reference though) but
not for the complex. I looked up "complex" in the FAR and could not
find anything regarding this.

61.31(e) and (f). Thanks for helping me find this. I think the Index
should point to these for "Complex" and "High Performance". I have the
ASA 2003 FAR/AIM and couldn't find it right off the bat.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an
endorsment for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.

This is kind of answered in the first question but to clear it up I can
log the time as safety pilot as long as I meet the category and class
requirements. To log PIC in a complex or high perfomance aircraft I must
be properly rated. Otherwise I would be considered SIC.

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:33:21 GMT, FryGuy wrote:

This is kind of answered in the first question but to clear it up I can
log the time as safety pilot as long as I meet the category and class
requirements. To log PIC in a complex or high perfomance aircraft I must
be properly rated. Otherwise I would be considered SIC.

I think you understand it but the use of "rated" in this context is
confusing the issue, since that term is used in 91.109 in a different way
than you appear to be using it.

Rated in this context just refers to category and class (i.e. aircraft,
single-engine land).

To log PIC as a safety pilot, in addition to being "rated", you must also
be current, have the proper endorsements and so forth. In addition, if the
pilot flying is also qualified to act as PIC, you must have made an
agreement with him that YOU would be the PIC. According to FAA legal
opinion, this agreement should be made prior to the flight.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:10:41 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

Rated in this context just refers to category and class (i.e. aircraft,
single-engine land).

That should be "airplane, ..."


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:43:09 -0700, "JerryK"
wrote:

Here is a wrinkle what if you are rated in category and class, but not
current? Ex. you have not landed in class and cat lately. Can you still
act as safetly pilot?

Of course you can. There is no requirement to be current. 91.109 says
"rated". In addition 61.55(d) specifically exempts safety pilots from the
requirements of 61.55.

You do need a current medical, though.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

is an endorsement for High Performance, without reference to certain FAR
paragraph a valid endorsement?

There are a variety of different endorsements, two of which you seem
concerned:
FAR61.31(e), Complex, defined as Retractable Gear, Flaps and Controllable
Pitch Propeller (example, Piper Arrow 200HP, Beech Sundowner 200HP,
retractable Cessna Skylane 235HP (also requires High Performance)) or a
Seaplane without the retractable gear but has controllable pitch prop and
flaps

FAR61.31(f), High Performance, Engine with MORE THAN 200HP (example, Beech
Bonanza 285HP, Fixed Gear Skylane 235HP) all of which normally have retract
gear, prop and flaps

Also there is:
FAR61.31(g), Pressurized Aircraft at High Altitudes
FAR61.31(i), Tail Wheel aircraft
FAR61.31(j), Glider, for different launch methods

BT

"FryGuy" wrote in message
1...
I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
snip
2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the
appropriate
category and class ratings.

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:01:22 GMT, Andrew Koenig wrote:

Unless you hold an instructor or ATP certificate, you can only
log PIC time for the period during which you are the sole
manipulator of the controls.

Robert Not true... if more than one pilot is required (pilot and safety
Robert pilot) either one may be the PIC and log PIC.

Hmmm... other posters differ from you on that.

I think you're right -- you need separate endorsements for each
kind of high-performance airplane.

Robert Not true, an endorsement in a Cessna 210 is good for a Bonanza.

That's because a Cessna 210 is both kinds at once, so if you're endorsed
for a 210, you effectively have both endorsements.

On the other hand, if you're endorsed for a Cessna 177RG, I don't
think that endorsement is valid for a 182.

The 177 has less than 200 HP?

If it does then the 182 might not be valid for the 177 RG.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

More than once, I've wondered what the regs were prior to some change.
Does anyone know of a web site that allows you to look up what the
regs were on a certain date?


Yes, I believe the FAA site itself lets you enter a date and get the regs as of
that date. Search for it - it's not that easy to find but I know I've run
across it. It goes by some non-obvious name (or did when I saw it)

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

As you have already seen, lots of people seem to remember private
interpretations or letters from the FAA ruling one way or another.

The regulations say that you have to be rated in category and class to act
as safety pilot. That means a pilot certified for airplane single engine
land can act as safety pilot in any single engine land airplane, from a
Pilatus PC-12 to a Cessna 152. The appropriate FAR says:

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight
unless --

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at
least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown.



There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC in order
to log PIC under any circumstances. In fact the FARs are quite clear about
when you may log PIC:


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.



A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. Others in the
FAA or anywhere else may differ in their personal opinions and may even have
written letters or articles stating their opinions, but those letters and
articles are just that: opinions. It should be remembered that many of these
people are attempting to enforce their opinion when they could not get their
ideas enacted in the regulations. They lost in committee and review, so now
they are attempting to mold public behavior through threats and
intimidation.

If the regulations do not mean what they say, then the regulations need to
be amended. Until then, the regulations have the force of law.

All of that being the case, my own personal opinion is that any pilot would
be very foolish to attempt to act as safety pilot in any airplane that he
was not fully qualified to operate. I think the regulations should be
changed. But right now the regulations are specific: you may act as safety
pilot and log PIC while doing it. There are no loopholes, gray areas, or
private interpretations here that make a convincing argument that the
regulations do not permit it.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.