P-3 and AIM-9

As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the two P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.

The story is that they were CIA-operated out of Taiwan, Germany, etc. with a number of modifications for intelligence collection and agent dropping and various skullduggery. When the CIA was done (by 1968) they were modified into the Navy first reconnaissance EP-3s.

One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while engaged in overflights...

This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?

Larry,
I heard the same stories you did (30 years ago or so, I'm a retired
AW), and I haven't been able to find anything that verifies the story.
Even some of the guys I knew flying in the "spookier" P-3s, that I knew
for years wouldn't verify anything.

Don McIntyre
Clarksville, TN

"Keith W" wrote in message

| "Larry Cauble" wrote in
| message .. .
||
|| As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B
|| 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the
|| two P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.
||
|| The story is that they were CIA-operated out of Taiwan, Germany, etc.
|| with a number of modifications for intelligence collection and agent
|| dropping and various skullduggery. When the CIA was done (by 1968)
|| they were modified into the Navy first reconnaissance EP-3s.
||
|| One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
|| rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
|| while engaged in overflights...
||
|| This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
|| thing?
||
|
| Its not that far fetched, the RAF fitted AIM-9's to its Nimrod
| Maritime Patrol aircraft during the Falklands war.
|
| Keith




I think the rear-firing part is the bit that's causing concern.



Would be an interesting series of seperation trials.



--

Cheers


Dave Kearton

One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while
engaged in overflights...

This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?

Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile hitting the
horizontal stablizer on its way out.

JD

"Joe Delphi" wrote:


One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs while
engaged in overflights...

This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a thing?

Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile hitting the
horizontal stablizer on its way out.

JD

It would tumble all over the place wouldn't it?...as likely
impact the fuselage as anywhere I'd think, hell, the turbulence
might even trash the whole missile, rip the fins off etc.
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Yeah, really I'm talking crazy aerodynamics...

On the other hand, does anyone remember the Soviet sub overflown by a Navy P-3 in the 1980s that had a mockup small SAM launcher up on the sail? There was some turbulence after that photo hit the fan...

So -- if you think you've got intell collectors watching you, paint up a blue missile all authentic colors and mount it on a pylon facing backwards... Hope that word filters through to the bad guys and who knows? Maybe that MiG pilot will twitch a bit, thereby causing him to miss. The Chinese Nationalists lost a lot of aircraft over the years, including several P2Vs (RB-69As).

Originally Posted by Don McIntyre

Larry,
I heard the same stories you did (30 years ago or so, I'm a retired
AW), and I haven't been able to find anything that verifies the story.
Even some of the guys I knew flying in the "spookier" P-3s, that I knew
for years wouldn't verify anything.
Don McIntyre
Clarksville, TN

I was a CTI back-ender and it's only been the past few years that I have allowed myself to THINK about this stuff...let alone verify.

Here's a photo of a black-painted P-3 at NAF Naha in October of 1966 for maintenance. According to www.vpnavy.net it's buno 149678, an EP-3B of VQ-1. It was later converted to an EP-3B and was in VQ-1 but in October of 1966 it was still a P-3A, albeit modified, and belonged to the CIA/ROCAF and was flying from Taiwan, etc. Note the CHINAT insignia, along with a few odd bumps and whatnot, including adapter rails on the wing pylons...

Gord Beaman wrote in
:

"Joe Delphi" wrote:


One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
while engaged in overflights...

This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
thing?

Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile
hitting the horizontal stablizer on its way out.

JD

It would tumble all over the place wouldn't it?...as likely
impact the fuselage as anywhere I'd think, hell, the turbulence
might even trash the whole missile, rip the fins off etc.

I doubt they would stay on the rails much past 100 knots. The wind blast
on the blunt back end (nozzle) would probably blow them off. The missiles
aren't mechanically locked to the rail, just held in place by the spring
loaded detent, which had been known to loosen over time, leading to
separations upon recovery, as documented here -
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/pr...ad.php?t=51707 .

Adding a small fairing over the nozzle might alleviate that problem, but
I'm really doubtful that this whole rear-firing thing was ever done.

Dave in San Diego

Dave in San Diego wrote in
:

Gord Beaman wrote in
:

"Joe Delphi" wrote:


One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
while engaged in overflights...

This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
thing?

Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Too much danger of the missile
hitting the horizontal stablizer on its way out.

JD

It would tumble all over the place wouldn't it?...as likely
impact the fuselage as anywhere I'd think, hell, the turbulence
might even trash the whole missile, rip the fins off etc.

I doubt they would stay on the rails much past 100 knots. The wind
blast on the blunt back end (nozzle) would probably blow them off. The
missiles aren't mechanically locked to the rail, just held in place by
the spring loaded detent, which had been known to loosen over time,
leading to separations upon recovery, as documented here -
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/pr...ad.php?t=51707 .

Adding a small fairing over the nozzle might alleviate that problem,
but I'm really doubtful that this whole rear-firing thing was ever
done.

Dave in San Diego

I know, it's not kool to follow up your own posts, but I just had to. The
NSC site has the originals of the 'Winder pics in the above link, and the
details - http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/pho...ive/photo3.htm

Dave in San Diego

"Dave Kearton" wrote in
message ...

"Keith W" wrote in message

| "Larry Cauble" wrote in
| message .. .
||
|| As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B
|| 'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the
|| two P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.
||
|| The story is that they were CIA-operated out of Taiwan, Germany, etc.
|| with a number of modifications for intelligence collection and agent
|| dropping and various skullduggery. When the CIA was done (by 1968)
|| they were modified into the Navy first reconnaissance EP-3s.
||
|| One intriguing part was that they were supposedly fitted with
|| rear-firing AIM-9 Sidewinders on wing pylons. To discourage MiGs
|| while engaged in overflights...
||
|| This sounds a bit far-fetched to me...has anyone heard of such a
|| thing?
||
|
| Its not that far fetched, the RAF fitted AIM-9's to its Nimrod
| Maritime Patrol aircraft during the Falklands war.
|
| Keith




I think the rear-firing part is the bit that's causing concern.



True enough , that part would be a bitch, forward firing AIM-9's
I can believe but not pointing backwards.

Keith



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Larry Cauble wrote:
As a young sailor (some 30+ years ago) I flew in the back of an EP-3B
'Batrack' aicraft of VQ-1. Years later, I read of the story of the two
P-3As that were converted to EP-3Bs in the 1960s.
y Cauble

Hmm When were you in Q1 ??? I was There 30+ years ago too, only I flew
the
other two.


Rick
Everett, Washington