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Aviation crash videos on-line



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 4th 04, 10:01 AM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Aviation crash videos on-line


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Hello Dudley,

Just curious: Did I ever state I was pushing flight safety ?


No you didn't. That's why I'm taking issue with you. If you had stated a
flight safety relationship with your work you would have had no problem
with me but you didn't do that, and you make absolutely no mention of
any flight safety connection with your work on your site.
The complete absence of the flight safety issue in your "hobby" of
showing crash video indicates to me that your interest in filming and
bringing attention to your work lies in other directions than the flight
safety issue; something with which I, as an ex- demonstration pilot take
VERY seriously!
I've seen this type of exploitation done by both amatuer and
professional photographers all through my professional career. You have
cross posted your web site address along with an open invitation to view
your "work" on at least 5 aviation related newsgroups; steering
"interested parties" to your web site to partake in your "hobby" of
filming and showing airplane crashes; all without one single word about
flight safety.
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.
You have every right to use bandwidth to state your case, and I can
assure you I'll use the same bandwidth to state my answer to your case.
You and I are natural enemies. I'll never buy what you're selling here.
Including the jet teams from 2 countries, I've seen 32 of my close
friends and fellow demonstration pilots die in crashes. I can assure you
that to me, an airplane crash is a lot more than how you view
them......what is it you said on your site......a HOBBY!!!
Sorry; no sale with me anyway.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

30GB in bandwidth in 7 hours put a quick stop to it.


  #2  
Old September 4th 04, 11:45 AM
Iwan Bogels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yep, it did. It just showed how many people are interested in the subject.

I understand Dudley's point of view, but I see things differently. No
problem, that's why we live in a free world.

And in case you are in doubt about my intentions, check
http://www.dappa.nl/photos.htm to see the work that I produce myself. I am
pretty sure that an ex-demonstration pilot like Dudley knows how to
appreciate that.

All the best from the Netherlands,

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA



"F.L. Whiteley" schreef in bericht
...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Hello Dudley,

Just curious: Did I ever state I was pushing flight safety ?


No you didn't. That's why I'm taking issue with you. If you had stated a
flight safety relationship with your work you would have had no problem
with me but you didn't do that, and you make absolutely no mention of
any flight safety connection with your work on your site.
The complete absence of the flight safety issue in your "hobby" of
showing crash video indicates to me that your interest in filming and
bringing attention to your work lies in other directions than the flight
safety issue; something with which I, as an ex- demonstration pilot take
VERY seriously!
I've seen this type of exploitation done by both amatuer and
professional photographers all through my professional career. You have
cross posted your web site address along with an open invitation to view
your "work" on at least 5 aviation related newsgroups; steering
"interested parties" to your web site to partake in your "hobby" of
filming and showing airplane crashes; all without one single word about
flight safety.
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.
You have every right to use bandwidth to state your case, and I can
assure you I'll use the same bandwidth to state my answer to your case.
You and I are natural enemies. I'll never buy what you're selling here.
Including the jet teams from 2 countries, I've seen 32 of my close
friends and fellow demonstration pilots die in crashes. I can assure you
that to me, an airplane crash is a lot more than how you view
them......what is it you said on your site......a HOBBY!!!
Sorry; no sale with me anyway.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

30GB in bandwidth in 7 hours put a quick stop to it.




  #3  
Old September 4th 04, 04:04 PM
Aviv Hod
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Iwan Bogels wrote:

Yep, it did. It just showed how many people are interested in the subject.

I understand Dudley's point of view, but I see things differently. No
problem, that's why we live in a free world.

And in case you are in doubt about my intentions, check
http://www.dappa.nl/photos.htm to see the work that I produce myself. I am
pretty sure that an ex-demonstration pilot like Dudley knows how to
appreciate that.

All the best from the Netherlands,

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA


Iwan, your aviation photography is top notch - really beautiful stuff,
and it is apparent that you have a love for aircraft and aviation. What
I think Dudley takes issue with is context - you provided none. Not in
your original post, and not on your web page.

I think it's important to acknowledge that in some of these accidents
good people lost their lives or were hurt, and that this should be kept
in mind when watching this. If you put this stuff up on your website,
you have to accept that some people will download this and completely
miss the grave implications of what they are watching. So I think it
will be helpful if you provide a framework of why you are sharing these
videos if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are doing. I
happen to think, like Jay Honeck, that there is nothing wrong with
putting up a bunch of aviation crash videos on your web site in and of
itself. But if it's in the context of "here, check out these COOL
videos!!!" you'll upset people, and rightly so. Flesh out some more
context and make your intentions clearer, and you'll do better.

Having said that, in my own aviation video gallery
http://www.avivhod.com/gallery/AviationVideos
I decided that it's too difficult to convey the right message when
posting aviation crash videos, so I avoided posting them. Other people
can do that, but I decided that it's not for me.

Blue Skies,
Aviv





  #4  
Old September 4th 04, 04:37 PM
Dudley Henriques
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:I8k_c.116580$Fg5.83066@attbi_s53...

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for

reasons
other than flight safety?


I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.
I'm not demanding that people stop watching crash videos put on the net
.. I have merely commented on how I personally, view the practice.
What you and others watch and enjoy watching is your business, as is
what you feel you are "learning" from the experience; and you can do it
without demanding I justify "precisely" my feelings on the matter for
you.

I have simply stated my disgust with those who find this type of thing
"entertaining" from the viewing standpoint, and my disgust for those who
take these pictures and show them in public outside the flight safety
context as a "hobby", which is what has been done in this instance. I
base these feelings on a lifetime of airshow demonstration and flight
safety exposure. You and others as well of course have your own
perspective whatever that might be.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet





  #5  
Old September 4th 04, 04:39 PM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It's all the cross posting

"Aviv Hod" wrote in
message ...
Doug FM wrote:
And the site is down after one day, that's gotta be some sort of record





Ever hear of the "Slashdot effect?" When a link makes it to the front
page of a popular website like slashdot.org , the web server of the
relevant page has a tendancy to start combusting into a huge puff of
vaporized silicon :-) They can take down a website in minutes... I was
surprised that all those videos didn't take down the server earlier.

-Aviv



  #6  
Old September 4th 04, 04:41 PM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

US tax dollars at work and play

but also shows the risk and sacrifice of eternal diligence in the defense of
freedom

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:I8k_c.116580$Fg5.83066@attbi_s53...
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.


What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for

reasons
other than flight safety?

Humans are fascinated with video-taped accidents of ALL kinds, simply
because they are so rare. The ability to capture an accident on video,

for
later viewing, is one of the true marvels of the last 100 years.

Personally, I view aviation videos for the thrill, as well as for any
"flight safety" aspects I may glean from them. Quite frankly, the odds of
my obtaining any useful information from watching an F-4 bolt over the

side
of an aircraft carrier are almost nil -- but that doesn't make watching

the
video any less fascinating.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"




  #7  
Old September 4th 04, 04:42 PM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

ink.net...
"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message

...
Dear aviation enthusiast,

Over the years we have collected loads of spectacular video footage.

This
includes about 100 video clips with aviation mishaps, accidents and

crashes.
Today we have opened http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm which shows the

first 15
videos. More videos will follow soon, so keep checking for updates !

Best regards,

Iwan Bogels & Tieme Festner
DAPPA

I visited the site and hope to see more of the clips. I find them to
be of instructional value in accident prevention. There are clips I
have seen in the past and have not been able to find since. Hopefully
they will be available with your research and efforts.
R. Kemp CFII/RAM


These people are in no way whatsoever even remotely involved with
aviation flight safety. By their own word, they exist solely for the
purpose of enhancing their "hobby" of aviation photography. A crash to
them is nothing more than an opportunity to record the sensationalism
involved which is exactly what they are doing on their web site.
I see not ONE publication on their site that could be linked to the
subject of flight safety.
I suggest that if you want to view crash photography that IS related to
flight safety, you purchase a copy of "Zero Error Margin" by Gen Des
Barker, a book on air safety that weighs 7 pounds and is the complete



snip....
Hey Dudley
Thats cool if we disagree. However, reading a 7 pound book takes a lot
longer than seeing some of the clips. It doesn't matter to me how or
why the clips were obtained unless they engineered the
accidents/incidents purely for prurient interest. The fact remains the
accidents/incidents happened and were captured on film, then gathered
in one place for those of us who don't have time or desire to wade
through any 7# book. Like you, I've been involved in aviation for
about 50 years. We've exchanged credentials and I think have mutual
respect for them so its a matter of personal opinion based on our
personal experiences.
The fact that so many people want to see these clips, regardless of
their personal reasons or motivations indicates a tremendous interest.
The clips work far better than trying to replicate them on a
blackboard or with hand gestures. I feel they are a great training
aid.
Best professional regards
R. Kemp
and definitive account of the air safety issues involved with many of
the videos and photographs these two people are putting up for viewing
on their site without any reference at all to the flight safety issue.
I've been involved directly with flight safety issues for fifty years
and am in fact deeply involved with Gen Barker's book on airshow safety.
I know the people involved in the safety business, and these two are NOT
pushing flight safety!
Please understand I have no problem with you having an opposing opinion
about what these people are presenting. I just don't agree with you.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet


like you guys to take this off USENET though


  #8  
Old September 4th 04, 04:47 PM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nah, drudgereport knocked over newscientist.com earlier this week with the
seti announcement long before it got /.ed

This site didn't get knocked over, they did it to themselves by cross
posting something that invokes a look and much curiousity without
understanding this web business. Now they can't afford the freight.
Bandwidth is not free.


"Doug FM" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
And the site is down after one day, that's gotta be some sort of record


"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear aviation enthusiast,

Over the years we have collected loads of spectacular video footage.

This
includes about 100 video clips with aviation mishaps, accidents and

crashes.
Today we have opened http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm which shows the first

15
videos. More videos will follow soon, so keep checking for updates !

Best regards,

Iwan Bogels & Tieme Festner
DAPPA






  #9  
Old September 4th 04, 04:50 PM
Jack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dudley Henriques wrote:

Sorry; no sale with me anyway.


I see their URL finally disappeared from your responses, Dudley. Editing
is good.

The fact that they cross-posted to such a mix of NGs tells me their
discretion is questionable, and they may not appreciate your objections.
I would have had more respect for them had they presented these videos
in some sort of a safety-related context, but then a moral sense of
responsibility is not something held in high esteem these days.

On the other hand, I gain some insight into the physical dynamics of air
crashes from seeing this type of video, and I think that is valuable.

Cognizance of the human toll, about which you have correctly reminded
us, is essential.


Jack
  #10  
Old September 4th 04, 04:52 PM
Dudley Henriques
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Aviv Hod" wrote in
message ...
Iwan Bogels wrote:

Yep, it did. It just showed how many people are interested in the

subject.

I understand Dudley's point of view, but I see things differently.

No
problem, that's why we live in a free world.

And in case you are in doubt about my intentions, check
http://www.dappa.nl/photos.htm to see the work that I produce

myself. I am
pretty sure that an ex-demonstration pilot like Dudley knows how to
appreciate that.

All the best from the Netherlands,

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA


Iwan, your aviation photography is top notch - really beautiful stuff,
and it is apparent that you have a love for aircraft and aviation.

What
I think Dudley takes issue with is context - you provided none. Not

in
your original post, and not on your web page.

I think it's important to acknowledge that in some of these accidents
good people lost their lives or were hurt, and that this should be

kept
in mind when watching this. If you put this stuff up on your website,
you have to accept that some people will download this and completely
miss the grave implications of what they are watching. So I think it
will be helpful if you provide a framework of why you are sharing

these
videos if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are doing. I
happen to think, like Jay Honeck, that there is nothing wrong with
putting up a bunch of aviation crash videos on your web site in and of
itself. But if it's in the context of "here, check out these COOL
videos!!!" you'll upset people, and rightly so. Flesh out some more
context and make your intentions clearer, and you'll do better.

Having said that, in my own aviation video gallery
http://www.avivhod.com/gallery/AviationVideos
I decided that it's too difficult to convey the right message when
posting aviation crash videos, so I avoided posting them. Other

people
can do that, but I decided that it's not for me.

Blue Skies,
Aviv


In my opinion, this is EXACTLY the right attitude to express on this
issue if crash video is to be displayed in a public venue, ESPECIALLY a
pilot's venue. What was lacking in this instance was any reference to
the safety issue, which leaves only the prurient interest in attracting
viewers. You put something like this in front of a pilot who has felt
the consequences of these videos first hand without comment and you can
easily have some issues arise, as they did here.
There is absolutely no negative issue with using photography as a safety
tool, and using photography as an educational tool in the flight safety
context is a long accepted practice that I personally endorse.
The problem occurs when photographers fail to realize, as you have so
correctly stated, that these photographs and videos all involve people,
families, friends, and indeed, human suffering. To simply throw them out
there for the sole purpose of entertainment, or enhancing the
photographer's image within the peer group as having bragging rights to
the pictures is simply unacceptable, especially to those of us who are
involved in the flight safety business.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet


 




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