Thermal right, land left

some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a thermal... unless
of course the thermal was strong enough to cause "an upset".. and then they
would still not recognize it as a thermal but a "wind gust" or even worse.."
an air pocket "..

I did not know air had pockets... LOL

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:404e629e$1@darkstar...
I've always just flown the direction of the lifted wing for
the thermal. Sure, you could probably just do them all to
the right, and it wouldn't make much difference,
but if you ever competed, the extra falling out of the thermal
and the confusion when joining others would be
new.

I personally don't like thermalling right turns, because of
my power experience (left is best!), but when I look at my traces,
I'm about 50/50.

The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating. In low vis circle-to-lands, it's nice to
be on the correct side of the cockpit...

In article ,
John wrote:
This past year, I have stuck to a policy of making all thermal turns
to the right only.

The airport I fly out of has left turns in the pattern. My idea is I
am developing the habit of turning slow to the right only. All left
turns are made at higher pattern speeds.

With the condition I am just recreationally flying locally (don't have
to be that efficient and can burn a turn to center each thermal by
going the "wrong way"), I found that thermaling for a while to the
left, then landing made the high speed left turns in the pattern feel
a bit "different". This was especially noticiable after not flying
for awhile. The result was babying the plane thru the turns instead
of "bank and yank".

Does this make sense for low-time pilots, or pilots who take time off
from flying occasionally? Seems like if you have not flown for
awhile, then thermal a few dozen slow left turns, you would naturally
tend to prefer slow left turns in the pattern. That is what you were
just praticing to do, after all.

Is there safety benefits to thermaling only to the right, and landing
only with left turns? Will a pilot develop habits or preference for
slow speed right turns and high speed left turns?

John


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma

I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

No offense to good ol' Tom, but the lift and sink that I have
encountered feel different. The sinking part of the thermal before
the lift of the wing feels turbulent to me. It also seems to go
from more sink to less sink. This is the opposite of a lift,
where it goes from less lift to more lift.

So when I feel a roll that goes from a high roll rate to a low roll rate,
I am in the turbulent sink before the core of the thermal, and
when I go from a low roll rate to a high roll rate, I know that
wing is entering the core of the thermal and since it is the
lifted wing, I turn into it, and into the thermal.

I didn't even realise this is what I do and feel until
I verbalized it just then. I must say that this "feel"
has done very, very well for me. When I look at my
traces, I turn immediately into the thermal and circle
there effectively with little shift (no 270
degree turns or major corrections to the other side).
This seems to work quite well, and consistently.

Some of this was learned because I flew quite a few days in
perfectly clear air. Other than the feel of the stick and
the pitch and roll, I had no immediate indications of lift.
The vario was just too coarse.

In article ,
Jim Vincent wrote:
some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma

I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ



--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

My experience is, I feel that I am entering sink before lift and have said
to myself many times 'there's the sink..' and the audio vario confirms it.
Now the vario tells me less sink look for the lift...and that feeling in my
butt tells me the same, I then wait for the wings to tell me which way to
turn, it doesn't tell if by the time I decide if to turn if I did it to
early or late. But the pundits would be dolphining and not turning anyway.



"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:404eab8b$1@darkstar...
No offense to good ol' Tom, but the lift and sink that I have
encountered feel different. The sinking part of the thermal before
the lift of the wing feels turbulent to me. It also seems to go
from more sink to less sink. This is the opposite of a lift,
where it goes from less lift to more lift.

So when I feel a roll that goes from a high roll rate to a low roll rate,
I am in the turbulent sink before the core of the thermal, and
when I go from a low roll rate to a high roll rate, I know that
wing is entering the core of the thermal and since it is the
lifted wing, I turn into it, and into the thermal.

I didn't even realise this is what I do and feel until
I verbalized it just then. I must say that this "feel"
has done very, very well for me. When I look at my
traces, I turn immediately into the thermal and circle
there effectively with little shift (no 270
degree turns or major corrections to the other side).
This seems to work quite well, and consistently.

Some of this was learned because I flew quite a few days in
perfectly clear air. Other than the feel of the stick and
the pitch and roll, I had no immediate indications of lift.
The vario was just too coarse.

In article ,
Jim Vincent wrote:
some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma

I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach
only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the
lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen
to run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying
really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning
into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left
wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you
woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be
to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the
thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more
how you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ



--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Jim Vincent wrote:

some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma


I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only
works about half the time.

If this were true, then that implies turning towards the lifted wing
theory is no better than chance: just flip a coin. But, we know that's
not true, because I and other pilots routinely improve our results by
turning towards the lifted wing.

Perhaps the explanation given above doesn't reflect what Tom actually
does, since I'm sure he is improving his results at least as much as I
am. Or maybe it's a reflection of his grasp of probability, as in: "the
chances of a rope break on tow are 50-50: it'll happen or it won't".

And no need to hyperventilate in Tom's defense, as he's heard that
before from many other people!


--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
...
some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma

I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach
only
works about half the time.

Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the
lift
of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to
run
into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying
really
helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning
into
the lifted wing would take you into the lift.

Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left
wing
and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you
woud
turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be
to
turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the
thermal.

So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how
you
respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn.

IIRC, Tom also mentions that if you turn the wrong way, you complete a 270
to fly directly back into the lift as the quickest correction.

Jim, you need to jump into the PW-2 Gapa thread.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ


Actually posted from TOPSPAM which is a proper munging.

Frank Whiteley

Jim, you need to jump into the PW-2 Gapa thread.

Thanks Frank. I responded directly to the poster. Two weeks ago, I spoke with
the guy who bought the Gapa and we discussed many of the issues. Hopefully,
I'll get to FL sometime and get to fly it!

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ

I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach
only
works about half the time.

Yeah...I head Tom make a similar comment at an SSA Convention some years
ago...Dallas, or maybe Albuquerque.

Derek Piggott, whose presentation followed Tom's, commented, "I wonder who
Tom doesn't like to turn into the lift?"

"Jim" wrote in message
...
I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach
only works about half the time.

Yeah...I head Tom make a similar comment at an SSA Convention some years
ago...Dallas, or maybe Albuquerque.

Derek Piggott, whose presentation followed Tom's, commented, "I wonder who
Tom doesn't like to turn into the lift?"

Oooops...make that "wonder WHY" not "wonder WHO"

Anyway...I'm with Derek on this one.

The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in
side-by-side seating.

Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and
helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our
patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the
flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern
as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by
helicopters.

Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber