IDAHO FATALITY

Talk of getting kicks......I enjoy watching others do low passes as
much as doing them myself. Better if they are open class ships. I
don't know....something about long legs and big ...ah ....well lets
move on.
The idea that the guy flying is having a great fantastic rip-snorting
time cashing in all his altitude letting his glider take him on a
magic carpet ride for a few seconds is simply a joy to watch. You get
to see his airmanship at work.....simply applying what he knows with
confidence to the art of flying.
Hey...I don't think I've ever seen a girl do a pass. Now that would be
a thrill.....perhaps in a Nimbus. A tall girl, in a Nimbus doing a
worm burner and... she wears glasses. What kind of beer???hmmm...

Learn to enjoy the ride boys, the asteroid is only getting closer.

R

It was noted...

Hmm, we recently had a lot of talk about practicing rope breaks, down to
200' or so, with opinions that any self respecting pilot should have no
problem with a rope break at 200-300ft.

Gee, I have no problem getting higher than that on a well planned and
executed low pass, in everything from an ASK-21 and G-103 to an LS4 or
LS6.

So some of you guys are OK springing a sudden low altitude pattern on a guy
in training, but tell others that they shouldn't do low passes at any time
because they are "dangerous"?

You guys are hypocrites.

Ummmm...what're the chances of having an unplanned, low-altitude rope
break/premature termination of tow (for any reason) vs. having an unplanned
zoomie suddenly appear?

Why is one mandated to be practiced (with instructors) and the other not?

Might not the answers to the preceding two question be fundamentally related?

Careful reading of my previous posts won't reveal me *telling* others they
shouldn't do zoomies; trying to *convince* them not to is quite a different
thing where I come from.

Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary defines hypocrite as: "one who
feigns to be what he is not; especially one who pretends to be pious,
virtuous, etc. without really being so." As I noted in another thread about
zoomies: BTDT; stopped doing them ~1980; have seen (and enjoyed
watching) many since (while simultaneously mentally cringing and
hoping/praying nothing bad happens); wouldn't consider my future significantly
poorer if I never see another one; sincerely hope I don't personally know
(even via RAS) anyone who may be a part of a zoomie gone bad in the future.


We soar because it's "fun". Nobody forces us to do it. For some, the fun
is in hanging around the airport in a 1-26 or 2-33, never out of gliding
range. Some enjoy bashing along the ridges in freezing weather. Some like
to see how high the wave will take them. Some like to race against others,
flying in marginal weather over marginal terrain to see who is best. Some
like pulling Gs.

None of it is necessary - we do it because we ENJOY doing it!

I enjoy pulling off a safe (yes, safe) low pass. I avoid getting into a
position where I intentionally try an unsafe low pass. The same can be
said about any other maneuver we do in gliders.

And I don't do it for you ******s on the ground who don't like them. I do
it for me, and my friends who enjoy the beauty of a skillfully flown
maneuver.

And you aint lived till you do a double formation low pass over an FAA
examiner...

He was cool about it!

Good for him and good for you, and may all your future zoomies continue to be
trouble-free.

Respectfully,
Bob W.

On Aug 24, 4:32*am, Bill D wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:34*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:





On Aug 23, 1:50*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

You can have a student with
great coordination and glidepath control at altitude, and who can
explain everything perfectly on oral quizzing. Then, things get a
little tight in the pattern, like he's too close and too low. His
attention gets focused elsewhere and stress goes up, and next thing
you know the yaw string is right over to the side on base to final and
he wants to pull the stick back.

That's another one which I've asked about here before, but no one has
ever answered.

Around here we have ridges and students are very likely to have quite
a bit of practice at doing well-banked coordinated turns while a lot
closer to the ground than normal base-to-final turns, in the presence
of considerable wind drift, groundspeed higher than airspeed
(approaching the ridge from upwind) etc.

Is there correlation between screwed-up base to final turns and
flatland fliers?

Quite possibly. *Mountain pilots know they can't trust the horizon so
they learn to control pitch attitude with airspeed and bank with rate
of turn. *Mountain flying requires a bit of instrument skills.

Hmm. I don't think that's true, at least for me.

You don't need an actual horizon, all you need is something far enough
away that if it moves in the canopy it's because the aircraft attitude
changed. It doesn't even have to be straight ahead -- well out to the
side is fine.

Even with a true horizon available, you're only using the horizon for
short term attitude stability and cross-referencing it to something
else (wind noise, control feel, airspeed indicator) to calibrate what
attitude you should be holding.

I've had the very interesting experience of flying with a friend doing
overnight freight runs in small turboprops (e.g. Cessna Caravan). When
you're ostensibly flying on instruments and using the artificial
horizon for attitude control, it's quite astounding how much
difference there is between having even two or three external points
of light from stars or farmhouses and not having them. When you're
deep in IMC in the middle of nowhere you are working very very hard.
When you have even the slightest external references that you may not
even be consciously aware of it gets 10x easier.

Your theory sounds more appropriate for people flying in severe haze
or cloud.

Originally Posted by Bob

I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. Anyone got any specifics? Tough summer
for gliding!

More and more people are using cell phones at the cost of public interests. What can we do to avoid those terrible dins produced by mobile phones?Are you still boring with the noises of phones at midnight? I have suffered it for a long time, for my peaceful family life. i bought a cell phone jammer from http://www.jammerall.com/ which is introduced by my friend. it is really cool, so share my happiness with you. Especially for your trip, you will have a happy holiday life with it.

On Aug 24, 12:42*pm, BobW wrote:
Ummmm...what're the chances of having an unplanned, low-altitude rope
break/premature termination of tow (for any reason) vs. having an unplanned
zoomie suddenly appear?

The very fact that zoomies are planned in advance makes them less
surprising, and therefore less prone to panic, rushing things etc than
unplanned rope breaks.


Why is one mandated to be practiced (with instructors) and the other not?

You have several times now ignored the possibility of training how to
do a low pass with an instructor on board, just like any other gliding
maneuver.

On Aug 21, 8:54*am, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:









On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy

Without attribution to anyone, I've gathered the following.

The PIC was familiar with the site, having flown rides there last year
with a 2-32 (the one in the earlier MT fatal crash).

He owned the BG-12b since 2007. However, this was apparently his
first outing with the glider and his fifth flight in it. He'd flown
it earlier in the week. Stall tests showed a tendency for right wing
to break first.

The downwind was apparently described as slow (and low) despite an
estimated 10-15mph tail wind. If that's ground wind, it's likely to
be somewhat higher at 100ft, 200ft, and 300ft above the ground.
Turning 180 for a landing in a wind gradient reverses the wind speed
differential between the lower and higher wings and maybe allowed the
lowered wing to stall.

Some may recall the Derek Piggott story of doing a 180 to a down wind
landing being the only thing that allowed enough aileron authority in
the wind gradient to be able to level the wings for landing.

Frank Whiteley

On 8/23/2011 9:11 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 24, 12:42 pm, wrote:
Ummmm...what're the chances of having an unplanned, low-altitude rope
break/premature termination of tow (for any reason) vs. having an unplanned
zoomie suddenly appear?

The very fact that zoomies are planned in advance makes them less
surprising, and therefore less prone to panic, rushing things etc than
unplanned rope breaks.

Thanks for helping make my point more clear. The planned aspect to zoomies is
all the more reason not to bugger one up...yet it would seem possible that
this *might* have been the case here.

Why is one mandated to be practiced (with instructors) and the other not?

You have several times now ignored the possibility of training how to
do a low pass with an instructor on board, just like any other gliding
maneuver.

Uhh...of *course* it's a (theoretical only?) possibility. Are their sites in
NZ where folks could travel to do this? I'm unaware of any in the U.S. that
advertise zoomie instruction is part of their standard offerings.

Regards,
Bob W.

Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:11:43 -0700, Cookie wrote:

I have a better idea....just don't do low passes....duh....

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that in some gliders you
can do things reasonably safely that are plain stupid in others.

There is a famous CFI at an Austrian club I visit regularly who enjoys
aerobatics after a day teaching soaring in the Tyrolean Alps.
Sometimes he uses the ASK21, but his favourite is a Pilatus (Swiss
glider). His Pilatus routine always finishes with a high speed very
low inverted pass followed by a push up to level flight (half outside
loop). Thrilling enough to watch in itself, but made especially so as
he continues the push-over until you think he is going to do it again.

Radio contact is maintained with all local traffic, power and
sailplanes.

In UK high speed low finishes were banned after a photographer on the
airfield boundary was killed, but prior to this they were commonplace.
It was not unusual to see six gliders in various stages of pull-up,
all talking to each other on the radio, and then flying a full normal
circuit to land. I don't recall any spin accidents in these scenarios
- is this because European pilots are better trained ?

On 24/08/2011 22:11, Gilbert Smith wrote:
Martin wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:11:43 -0700, Cookie wrote:

I have a better idea....just don't do low passes....duh....

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that in some gliders you
can do things reasonably safely that are plain stupid in others.

There is a famous CFI at an Austrian club I visit regularly who enjoys
aerobatics after a day teaching soaring in the Tyrolean Alps.
Sometimes he uses the ASK21, but his favourite is a Pilatus (Swiss
glider). His Pilatus routine always finishes with a high speed very
low inverted pass followed by a push up to level flight (half outside
loop). Thrilling enough to watch in itself, but made especially so as
he continues the push-over until you think he is going to do it again.

Radio contact is maintained with all local traffic, power and
sailplanes.


Superb flying in a 40 year old design with a best-glide similar to a K6.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4pNkq5lQ5Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_eP...eature=related


In UK high speed low finishes were banned

Not remotely true. I'd give you a link but the BGA website is currently
unavailable.


after a photographer on the
airfield boundary was killed, but prior to this they were commonplace.
It was not unusual to see six gliders in various stages of pull-up,
all talking to each other on the radio, and then flying a full normal
circuit to land. I don't recall any spin accidents in these scenarios
- is this because European pilots are better trained ?

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:47:35 -0600, BobW wrote:

Uhh...of *course* it's a (theoretical only?) possibility. Are their
sites in NZ where folks could travel to do this? I'm unaware of any in
the U.S. that advertise zoomie instruction is part of their standard
offerings.

Come to think of it, we did an 80 kt low pass over the Mynd in a DG 505
on my checkout flight for that site back in April. The instructor was
flying and demonstrating a low level way back to the site from the south
ridge. We were running fast because we didn't intend to stop and low
because that's where I'd be if I needed to use that way back onto the
field. Of course, there was no pull-up needed because the Mynd is a ridge-
top site, so we just swung left and out over the working ridge....

If you want to try find out about flying there and the techniques they
use, I'm certain the Midland gliding club would be delighted to have you
visit them.


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