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#81
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IDAHO FATALITY
On Aug 25, 11:42*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
How about that, zoomie fans?!? And good on whomever the controlling entity mandating this, in this setting, is. Thanks for the (usable!) info, GC. Regards, Bob W. I think it's a great idea. Along with more training on gaggle flying, XC flying, etc. Of course, that would require that US instructors actually have some gaggle, XC, high performance experience and training themselves. Unfortunately, that is somewhat rare in the US (with many notable exceptions, of course). How about mandating Silver badge as a prereq for a CFIG rating - kinda like a CFI has to have an instrument rating... Kirk 66 That is/was a UK requirement, and a good one in my opinion. Frank Whiteley |
#82
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IDAHO FATALITY
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:25:34 -0700, Eric Greenwell wrote:
I remember the incident, but did not know the photographer was in contact with the glider, or that it was at high speed. That it was at high speed was well-known and reported, but not the 'Radio contact' story: this is the first I've heard of it. BTW: mentioning this incident is mis-attributed. I didn't mention it, but its only the very low passes, as in below hedge/head height, that have been banned, not high speed finishes above 50-100 feet. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#83
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IDAHO FATALITY
On Aug 23, 9:58*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:54*am, Ramy wrote: On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote: On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote: Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote: On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:- I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer for gliding!- BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports. IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB BG-12B GLIDER Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243 Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Substantial LOCATION City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US DESCRIPTION A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1 # Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0 Unk: # Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0 Unk: # Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0 Unk: WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003 OTHER DATA Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011 Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have much faith in the outcome of these investigations. Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and control for unknown reasons. And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much context'...time will tell. However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should* do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database. Bob W. Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than 'wait for the NTSB report'. And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass. I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough speed. This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as possible from every accident to increase our safety. Ramy Without attribution to anyone, I've gathered the following. The PIC was familiar with the site, having flown rides there last year with a 2-32 (the one in the earlier MT fatal crash). He owned the BG-12b since 2007. *However, this was apparently his first outing with the glider and his fifth flight in it. *He'd flown it earlier in the week. *Stall tests showed a tendency for right wing to break first. The downwind was apparently described as slow (and low) despite an estimated 10-15mph tail wind. *If that's ground wind, it's likely to be somewhat higher at 100ft, 200ft, and 300ft above the ground. Turning 180 for a landing in a wind gradient reverses the wind speed differential between the lower and higher wings and maybe allowed the lowered wing to stall. Some may recall the Derek Piggott story of doing a 180 to a down wind landing being the only thing that allowed enough aileron authority in the wind gradient to be able to level the wings for landing. Frank Whiteley- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...18X01703&key=1 Ramy |
#84
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IDAHO FATALITY
Radio checks on the ground, engine running or off, are always "Five By". In
flight, I can receive all transmissions, it's *my* transmissions which are garbled. I've tried different headsets, wiggled connections (under the panel), etc. Sometimes I'm clear and sometimes nobody hears. It's a very sleepy airport with only a few operations per week other than gliders so not much of a problem. "JJ Sinclair" wrote in message ... I'm continually told that the radio in the tug I fly is "unreadable", "garbled", etc. I have no control over it. The operation has no money to Don't know what to tell you Dan, is the radio garbled with engine off? Could be a place to start. I have aften thought that my friend Hal would have willingly bought a radio for every tow plane in the country, had he only known the tragic events that awaited him and his tow pilot that November day, 2 years ago. JJ |
#85
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IDAHO FATALITY
Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low
pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). Not intending to cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience in learning to fly gliders... Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. There was nobody qualified to teach me. "Bruce Hoult" wrote in message ... On Aug 24, 12:42 pm, BobW wrote: Ummmm...what're the chances of having an unplanned, low-altitude rope break/premature termination of tow (for any reason) vs. having an unplanned zoomie suddenly appear? The very fact that zoomies are planned in advance makes them less surprising, and therefore less prone to panic, rushing things etc than unplanned rope breaks. Why is one mandated to be practiced (with instructors) and the other not? You have several times now ignored the possibility of training how to do a low pass with an instructor on board, just like any other gliding maneuver. |
#86
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IDAHO FATALITY
In article "Dan Marotta" writes:
So much reliance on radios! I'm continually told that the radio in the tug I fly is "unreadable", "garbled", etc. I have no control over it. Many things could cause it. Wind or engine noise overcoming the headset noise cancelling microphone, SWR causing RF on the microphone and radio wiring, a broken radio, perhaps from internal condensation if it has been around for a while. The operation has no money to fix the problem. Should they shut down, instead? I would suggest that they find money to fix the radio. It is cheap insurance against another accident report because one of the rare visitors doesn't understand what the glider operation is doing, and cannot understand your radio. I'm still hearing excuses for poor pilot technique and lack of knowledge of signals. Is that like excuses for bad radios? (You are not alone. A good fraction of the gliders where I fly have unreadable radios.) Alan |
#87
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IDAHO FATALITY
On Aug 31, 4:13*pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). *Not intending to cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience in learning to fly gliders... *Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. *There was nobody qualified to teach me. What kind of glider are they training in? We do rides and initial training here in a pair of DG1000s. Before that we used two Grob Twin Astirs (and a Janus) for about a dozen years, and before that Blaniks. All were capable of cross country training, though of course the later ones are better... I don't think you'd want to try a low pass in the Blanik. The Vne is plenty high, but you'd lose speed very quickly. |
#88
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IDAHO FATALITY
Twenty-six years ago, when I started gliding, it was the Schweizer 2-33 and
the Lark IS-28B2. None of the instructors where I learned flew cross country, they just instructed over the local area. I had a friend lead me around farther and farther from the airport until I gained the confidence to head out on my own. DG1000? Not invented yet! I have seen Blaniks doing routine low passes with paying passengers on board. I won't mention the operation where this is done... "Bruce Hoult" wrote in message ... On Aug 31, 4:13 pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote: Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). Not intending to cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience in learning to fly gliders... Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. There was nobody qualified to teach me. What kind of glider are they training in? We do rides and initial training here in a pair of DG1000s. Before that we used two Grob Twin Astirs (and a Janus) for about a dozen years, and before that Blaniks. All were capable of cross country training, though of course the later ones are better... I don't think you'd want to try a low pass in the Blanik. The Vne is plenty high, but you'd lose speed very quickly. |
#89
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IDAHO FATALITY
Why not mention names? If the operation is unsafe then it should be
publicized, just like you should intercede if someone was taking off with the spoilers open. If the operation is safe (not necessarily my opinion), then the operator would probably appreciate the publicity. Mike Schumann On 8/31/2011 10:42 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: Twenty-six years ago, when I started gliding, it was the Schweizer 2-33 and the Lark IS-28B2. None of the instructors where I learned flew cross country, they just instructed over the local area. I had a friend lead me around farther and farther from the airport until I gained the confidence to head out on my own. DG1000? Not invented yet! I have seen Blaniks doing routine low passes with paying passengers on board. I won't mention the operation where this is done... "Bruce Hoult" wrote in message ... On Aug 31, 4:13 pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote: Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). Not intending to cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience in learning to fly gliders... Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. There was nobody qualified to teach me. What kind of glider are they training in? We do rides and initial training here in a pair of DG1000s. Before that we used two Grob Twin Astirs (and a Janus) for about a dozen years, and before that Blaniks. All were capable of cross country training, though of course the later ones are better... I don't think you'd want to try a low pass in the Blanik. The Vne is plenty high, but you'd lose speed very quickly. -- Mike Schumann |
#90
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IDAHO FATALITY
On Aug 22, 5:18*pm, BobW wrote:
I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale. What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use? You might ask yourself the same question about contest flying in general, cross-country soaring in general or soaring in general. They answer in every case is "because of the enjoyment". Winning a contest day is the ultimate "hey look at me", moment. In every phase of soaring we need to look at the risk/reward - remembering that each is, after all, in the name of a prima facie frivolous activity. |
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