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#171
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Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
Hi, I suspect that it would be much easier for your typical club to train and line up qualified winch operators than finding tow pilots. Where I fly every student is required to start learning how to operate the winch as soon as he or she goes solo. As a result we have lots of winch drivers. And I think it is a good idea anyway. You learn what a good launch looks and feels like from the other side. Ciao, MM We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch... -- Bruce Greeff Std Cirrus #57 I'm no-T at the address above. |
#172
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On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:
: We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch... It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to clubs with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much rather be launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of launches than someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club rules. Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor |
#173
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Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote: : We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch... It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to clubs with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much rather be launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of launches than someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club rules. Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor Ian We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving. Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch - maybe 5 or 10 launches, once every quarter. Although we have one who volunteers just about ever time he is there - he just loves playing tunes with that V8... The others will share the launching, on average doing around 8 launches on any given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares the work and pitches in, and the experience on the winch means the low time pilots have a better understanding of what is going on. There are days when one of the more experienced types installs him/herself in the winch and makes the day go smoothly, and the inexperienced types get a benchmark to aim for. But if we did that every week we would soon lose the "really good" winch drivers. Spending a few hours seeing how well you can get the winch to perform, every now and then is one thing,(and can be very rewarding) but we all go to the airfield to fly... Our experience is that there are a few individuals who never make satisfactory winch drivers. With few exceptions they also struggle with the flying part. You learn a lot observing someone on the winch. And driving the winch in all the different conditions accelerates learning, he may not be flying, but the winch driver is intimately involved in every launch. -- Bruce Greeff Std Cirrus #57 I'm no-T at the address above. |
#174
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Your comments fit in my own experience at a fairly small club I've spent
most of my time at. With around 60 members there are only about 8 to 10 who are "cleared" for the winch. Instructors do not winch unless it's a special occasion or a really quiet day. There really isn't enough of them to waste on the winch anyway! Putting someone on the winch for a full day has/is resulting in loosing these people to other activities (i.e. not gliding). The other problem with such a low number of trained people is that the winch duty comes around every 4 weeks. And also what happens is that if you turn up to fly and the duty man isn't there, you end up on the winch all day again. If you've gone to fly and end up working, it's extremely demotivating. I agree with your thoughts that a winch man is intimately involved in every launch, its a very responsible job and takes quite a bit of skill to complete correctly. As to the point that some individuals don't make good winchmen, absolutely right every time! These people seem uncordinated and unaware of what's happening around them, and they seem to fly that way. Almost an accident waiting to happen I guess. Cheers, Malcolm.. "Bruce" wrote in message ... Ian Johnston wrote: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote: : We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch... It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to clubs with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much rather be launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of launches than someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club rules. Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor Ian We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving. Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch - maybe 5 or 10 launches, once every quarter. Although we have one who volunteers just about ever time he is there - he just loves playing tunes with that V8... The others will share the launching, on average doing around 8 launches on any given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares the work and pitches in, and the experience on the winch means the low time pilots have a better understanding of what is going on. There are days when one of the more experienced types installs him/herself in the winch and makes the day go smoothly, and the inexperienced types get a benchmark to aim for. But if we did that every week we would soon lose the "really good" winch drivers. Spending a few hours seeing how well you can get the winch to perform, every now and then is one thing,(and can be very rewarding) but we all go to the airfield to fly... Our experience is that there are a few individuals who never make satisfactory winch drivers. With few exceptions they also struggle with the flying part. You learn a lot observing someone on the winch. And driving the winch in all the different conditions accelerates learning, he may not be flying, but the winch driver is intimately involved in every launch. -- Bruce Greeff Std Cirrus #57 I'm no-T at the address above. |
#175
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:32:35 UTC, Bruce wrote:
: We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors : doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this : means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving. I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly on a windy day, for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further ten for them to be polished. So if you use a couple of drivers a day (am/pm split, maybe) I'm sure standards will be quite acceptable. It's places - and I have been there - where driving the winch is seen as an unpopular chore, so people reluctantly do two or three and then hand over, where standards really start to slip. I agree completely about the worth of student pilots learning to winch, but that has to be balanced against the safety of the launching operation generally. Incidentally, I wish more (flying) instructors would drive winches. Many of them have some very peculiar ideas about what the winch, and the winch driver, can and cannot do! Ian -- |
#176
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At 19:42 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:
I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly on a windy day, for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further ten for them to be polished. What?? 20 Launches to get to a 'polished' standard! (on each day, is this?) Jesus, you have cr*p winch drivers, or cr*p winch instructors! So this is what you reckon Ian? Are you winch driver? So if you use a couple of drivers a day (am/pm split, maybe) I'm sure standards will be quite acceptable. It's places - and I have been there - where driving the winch is seen as an unpopular chore, so people reluctantly do two or three and then hand over, where standards really start to slip. Good winch training, makes good winch drivers, just like flying training, if some winch driver does 10 bad launches, 'to get his/her eye in', I think he would be on re-training or very poor! (after buying a round of drinks for everyone he gave a cr*p launch to). Even our less experienced winch drivers, generally only take two launches to get their eye in, after good feedback from the pilots. I will send you one of our 70+ year old winch drivers to you (before they get stopped by insurance companies, EU directives, lack of binoculars, party poopers........) I'm sure you need them. Hopefully you have exaggerated the number of launches. lol Dave |
#177
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:14:27 UTC, Dave Ruttle
wrote: At 19:42 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote: I reckon it takes at least ten launches, particularly on a windy day, for a driver to get his/her hand in, and a further ten for them to be polished. What?? 20 Launches to get to a 'polished' standard! (on each day, is this?) Jesus, you have cr*p winch drivers, or cr*p winch instructors! So this is what you reckon Ian? Are you winch driver? I'm a winch driver and a winch instructor. And yes, if it's a windy day, and you're launching a mixture glass and wood, single and two seater, I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches to do it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum speed, perfect height launches every time. Of course it's possible to do some sort of launch without taking much care over it. If you don't fly at a club which takes winch driving seriously you probably don't know how good it can be. Good winch training, makes good winch drivers, just like flying training, if some winch driver does 10 bad launches, 'to get his/her eye in', I think he would be on re-training or very poor! (after buying a round of drinks for everyone he gave a cr*p launch to). I didn't write "crap launch" and I didn't mean "crap" launch. And just as with pilots, training is only the beginning. It's practice, practice, practice after that. I'm certainly not claiming that it's rocket science, but it is something that can be done adequately or much better. In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to winch drivers when I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's hesitation (many/most pilots just accept them: they shouldn't) and I don't take underspeeds either. I invariably refuse to pay for aborted launches, and when one winch driver told me I should have pulled back (ten feet in the air) to accelerate I formally complained to his club's safety officer about his competence and attitude. Even our less experienced winch drivers, generally only take two launches to get their eye in, after good feedback from the pilots. If you are happy with those standards, fine. Ian |
#178
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Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all? Hmmm...in the USA, even the clubs where the aerotow pilots do it for free, there is still SOME benefit. Either they are building time, or they get to rent the towplane for cheap on non-soaring days, or they get free training to be towpilots (which they can then use to prove experience at a for-profit operation). I would think that at least SOME of the winch operations pay SOMETHING. Even $1 or $2 a launch... If not, I'm not surprised it is unpopular duty. Do they get a free BBQ dinner or something at least? At 19:00 03 July 2005, Malcolm Austin wrote: Your comments fit in my own experience at a fairly small club I've spent most of my time at. With around 60 members there are only about 8 to 10 who are 'cleared' for the winch. Instructors do not winch unless it's a special occasion or a really quiet day. There really isn't enough of them to waste on the winch anyway! Putting someone on the winch for a full day has/is resulting in loosing these people to other activities (i.e. not gliding). The other problem with such a low number of trained people is that the winch duty comes around every 4 weeks. And also what happens is that if you turn up to fly and the duty man isn't there, you end up on the winch all day again. If you've gone to fly and end up working, it's extremely demotivating. I agree with your thoughts that a winch man is intimately involved in every launch, its a very responsible job and takes quite a bit of skill to complete correctly. As to the point that some individuals don't make good winchmen, absolutely right every time! These people seem uncordinated and unaware of what's happening around them, and they seem to fly that way. Almost an accident waiting to happen I guess. Cheers, Malcolm.. 'Bruce' wrote in message ... Ian Johnston wrote: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:39:35 UTC, Bruce wrote: : We have a better rule - no solo in glider before solo on winch... It's not a bad idea, but it can and does (in my experience) lead to clubs with large numbers of not-very-good winch drivers. I'd much rather be launched by someone who has done dozens or hundreds of launches than someone who does a few every few weeks to satisfy club rules. Ian, winch-but-not-any-other-sort-of-instructor Ian We average around 26-35 launches a day. With a small club and the instructors doing less winching (although everyone including the CFI drives winch) this means that our students, and solo pilots get to do plenty of winch driving. Instructors can expect to spend some time on the winch - maybe 5 or 10 launches, once every quarter. Although we have one who volunteers just about ever time he is there - he just loves playing tunes with that V8... The others will share the launching, on average doing around 8 launches on any given day. It is not onerous, everyone shares the work and pitches in, and the experience on the winch means the low time pilots have a better understanding of what is going on. There are days when one of the more experienced types installs him/herself in the winch and makes the day go smoothly, and the inexperienced types get a benchmark to aim for. But if we did that every week we would soon lose the 'really good' winch drivers. Spending a few hours seeing how well you can get the winch to perform, every now and then is one thing,(and can be very rewarding) but we all go to the airfield to fly... Our experience is that there are a few individuals who never make satisfactory winch drivers. With few exceptions they also struggle with the flying part. You learn a lot observing someone on the winch. And driving the winch in all the different conditions accelerates learning, he may not be flying, but the winch driver is intimately involved in every launch. -- Bruce Greeff Std Cirrus #57 I'm no-T at the address above. Mark J. Boyd |
#179
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:35:33 UTC, M B
wrote: Is it my understanding that the winch drivers at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all? The club at which I am a winch instructor allows the duty winch driver to fly (once) in a club glider whenever s/he wishes during their stint, bypassing the list. That flight is free. Ian |
#180
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Aha! That seems very civilized. Good.
At 22:54 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:35:33 UTC, M B wrote: Is it my understanding that the winch drivers at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all? The club at which I am a winch instructor allows the duty winch driver to fly (once) in a club glider whenever s/he wishes during their stint, bypassing the list. That flight is free. Ian Mark J. Boyd |
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