IDAHO FATALITY

On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote:
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under
stress.
UH

Mike wrote:
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.


Another thing then to remember to turn on and get right by pilots who
are failing to do/notice basic things already. Need to be turned on
before takeoff and before the pattern entry/high speed pass so probably
timed before usual landing checks.

Darryl

Mike wrote:
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.


Ah and no - for take off this needs to be ON for when the rope breaks or
towplane or winch has a problem and the glider will be landing. This is
a scenario where pilots have fatal stall/spin accidents. False stall
alarms during takeoff are potential distractions that would need to be
at an acceptable level.

Darryl

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate? Why
not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing gear?
Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers.

BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated,
likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any better
pilots than us mere mortals. They simply took the steps to add another
rating. I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with an instructor
at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty". What about the
instructor? How come he's not rusty? And, yes, I've known some mighty fine
and capable instructors. Likewise, I've known some that I wouldn't fly
with.

(Flame suit on)

On Sep 8, 9:12*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message

...

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate? *Why
not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing gear?
Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers.

BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated,
likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any better
pilots than us mere mortals. *They simply took the steps to add another
rating. *I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with an instructor
at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty". *What about the
instructor? *How come he's not rusty? *And, yes, I've known some mighty fine
and capable instructors. *Likewise, I've known some that I wouldn't fly
with.

(Flame suit on)

Glide computers are becoming ubiquitous and they have the ability to
provide data on AGL height (simulated radar altimeter) using their
terrain elevation database. This could automatically set the stall
warning to sensitive when within 1000' of the ground and either turn
it off or set it to insensitive above that.

"Dan Marotta" wrote:

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could
it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate?
Why not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing
gear? Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers.

Bzzzzzztttt (sorry that was my r.a.s. bad idea alarm going off. I
normally have to keep it turned off to but...). This idea probably would
not help the fatal crash that started this thread. For fatal stall/spins
turning base/final I expect the spoilers to be closed in most cases. And
we have pilots who forget to put the gear down. I suspect there is some
correlation with not putting the gear down and being harried/behind the
aircraft to start with and therefore maybe more needing of a stall
warning device. It would also be bad to have an alarm sound the moment
the spoiler is pulled or gear goes down--these often happen close to the
ground and at critical times that could distract the pilot. Does the
pilot who gets an alarm on lowering the gear or popping the spoilers
then lower the nose or close the spoilers/raise the gear to stop the
silencing alarm or sit there confused for a few seconds wondering why
they have an alarm for gear up when they just put it down. Remember the
pilot that matters here is already behind the aircraft/confused and may
not react correctly

I am not opposed to the idea of stall warming devices but they have to
be on all the time and need to have a low false alarm/annoyance rate and
be affordable/installable. Again I would love to hear experiences from
folks flying with the currently available stall warning devices. For all
I know might already have usable systems out there...

BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated,
likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any
better pilots than us mere mortals. They simply took the steps to add
another rating. I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with
an instructor at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty".
What about the instructor? How come he's not rusty? And, yes, I've
known some mighty fine and capable instructors. Likewise, I've known
some that I wouldn't fly with.

(Flame suit on)

Well clearly on average that instructor has done many flights recently
before your spring refresher flight with them. In many places they teach
all winter. On some places instructors will check each other out and/or
make sure they have flown themselves early in the season.

If you cannot find an instructor who you want to fly with at the start
of a season or at other times who can help improve your flying skills,
brush you up on emergency procedures or just get a critique of your
flying skill then you are either an amazing pilot or are not looking
around very hard to find some of the great instructors out there.

Darryl

Bill D wrote:
[snip]

Glide computers are becoming ubiquitous and they have the ability to
provide data on AGL height (simulated radar altimeter) using their
terrain elevation database. This could automatically set the stall
warning to sensitive when within 1000' of the ground and either turn
it off or set it to insensitive above that.


Bzzzzzzzzzztttttttttttttttttttt.

Maybe the stall warning should actually measure the stall.

A small hole (static sized) on the top skin of the wing, back half,
would indicate a sharp drop in pressure when separation starts ahead
of it, along with characteristc turbulence. Connect it to a pressure
transducer, run wires down the wing to a plug that automatically makes
contact on assembly, and you have a stall warning that measures
exactly that -- stalls.

It would account automatically for water ballast, spoilers, flaps,
landing gear, rain, bugs, and all the other things that make airspeed
or even angle of attack based approaches fail.

It would be useful in a thermal -- you actually don't want to thermal
at the edge of a stall, where separation is already starting. You want
to thermal 1-2 knots more than that. So the ``stall warning'' going
off would be useful feedback "you're thermaling inefficiently" as well
as a last ditch attempt to wake up a distracted pilot in trouble.

And, while I'm dreaming, it should have voice! The famous last words
are always "there was some damn buzzer going off and I was too busy to
figure out how to shut it up." Vario sinking, landing gear warning,
sua airspace warnings, mylar peeling, all make too much the same
sounds.

John Cochrane.

On 9/8/11 9:16 AM, John Cochrane wrote:
Maybe the stall warning should actually measure the stall.

A small hole (static sized) on the top skin of the wing, back half,
would indicate a sharp drop in pressure when separation starts ahead
of it, along with characteristc turbulence. Connect it to a pressure
transducer, run wires down the wing to a plug that automatically makes
contact on assembly, and you have a stall warning that measures
exactly that -- stalls.

It would account automatically for water ballast, spoilers, flaps,
landing gear, rain, bugs, and all the other things that make airspeed
or even angle of attack based approaches fail.

It would be useful in a thermal -- you actually don't want to thermal
at the edge of a stall, where separation is already starting. You want
to thermal 1-2 knots more than that. So the ``stall warning'' going
off would be useful feedback "you're thermaling inefficiently" as well
as a last ditch attempt to wake up a distracted pilot in trouble.

And, while I'm dreaming, it should have voice! The famous last words
are always "there was some damn buzzer going off and I was too busy to
figure out how to shut it up." Vario sinking, landing gear warning,
sua airspace warnings, mylar peeling, all make too much the same
sounds.

John Cochrane.

John

That was kind of the basis of the DG-600/600M stall warning. However
measuring at the wing roots won't account for things like spoiler
effects. And even if automatic connection still needs to be checked at
assembly, but definitely put the transducers in the wing--but they need
to be accessible/serviceable especially for things like gooping up the
holes with wax/polish or water etc. Designing this to be able to handle
the glider being washed and know the holes/tubes are not full of water
will be interesting. And folks who flew with the DG600 system... how
well did it work?

BTW who else notices the Duo Discus wing root rumbling when thermalling
slow? Just on the edge of that feels really good to me when wanting to
be really slow/tight in a thermal (when not low).

+1 on the need for voice (and likely some ad-hoc standardization on this
across devices). My (motor)glider has the potential to make sounds for
vario lift/sink, spoiler open, slow speed (usually defeated), U/C up,
SUA entry (mostly disabled), OZ entry (C302/303 usually disabled),
engine temps, low fuel, etc... and adding PowerFLARM... far too many
thingies making noises.

Darryl

On Sep 8, 8:19*am, wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote:

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under
stress.
UH

Too true

Frank Whiteley