First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

I should clarify after some study of 91.225 for gliders.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx..._1225&rgn=div8

TABS is always voluntary.

After 2020 a TSO-C166b 1090es ADS-B out (not just TABS or UAT) will be required

- In class A, above FL180. Presumably IFR without a wave-window.

Either 1090es or UAT (but not TABS) is acceptable

- Inside class B or class C airspace, or within that lateral boundary above 10,000' MSL (or the airspace ceiling, whichever is lower.)

Otherwise as with a transponder today, ADSB-out of any kind will not be required within the class B "veil" or generally in controlled airspace between 10,000' and 18,000' MSL.

Whew!

Sarah,

Thanks for the explanation... but... I'm still confused. Try explaining it one more time.

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device? I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

My two cents...

Walt Rogers WX

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 2:29:07 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
I should clarify after some study of 91.225 for gliders.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx..._1225&rgn=div8

TABS is always voluntary.

After 2020 a TSO-C166b 1090es ADS-B out (not just TABS or UAT) will be required

- In class A, above FL180. Presumably IFR without a wave-window.

Either 1090es or UAT (but not TABS) is acceptable

- Inside class B or class C airspace, or within that lateral boundary above 10,000' MSL (or the airspace ceiling, whichever is lower.)

Otherwise as with a transponder today, ADSB-out of any kind will not be required within the class B "veil" or generally in controlled airspace between 10,000' and 18,000' MSL.

Whew!

Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).

On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

Probably none. Except visits from the FCC & airport police.

I will have the TN72 in the first quarter of 2017 per the distributor.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:56:54 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I had inquired directly with Trig on the potential use of the TT21 and the TN72 and this was their response in a message back to me on Dec 7th...

"Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B.
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers."

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:28:26 AM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:56:54 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I had inquired directly with Trig on the potential use of the TT21 and the TN72 and this was their response in a message back to me on Dec 7th...

"Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B.
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers."

Renny, thanks. That makes uncommon sense for the rule makers. What happens on a Flarm display that sees both a Flarm and an ADS-B return from a glider? Is Flarm capable of disambiguating the result?