Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

Antonio.. if the ATC has not violated you.. do not have an issue to
resolve..

BT

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...


Gary Drescher wrote:


I don't think there's anything in the FARs themselves that would let a
pilot
conclude that following ATC instructions is secondary to complying with
the
other FARs. That's not the way analogous situations work when driving a
car,
for example; there, police directives do take precedence over the traffic
laws that would otherwise hold (even though there are other, implicit
exceptions of the sort you mentioned; e.g. if you're instructed to stop
your
car ten feet above the pavement, you presumably can't be penalized for
failing to comply).

--Gary

Well said and exactly my dilema which, as yet, is unresolved.

Antonio

On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:24:20 +0000, Arketip wrote:

And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.

True, but by the time I turn base to final, I am only a 1/4 mile from the
end of the runway using the slower speed. If I go faster, my plane doesn't
like to slow down, and I end up remaining in the pattern a longer period of
time needing additional real estate to slow down.

A faster plane most likely would have to work a wider and longer pattern
then me anyway.

If that faster plane behind me keeps appropriate spacing behind me, since I
am using much less real estate in the pattern with my slower speed, by the
time I have landed, and cleared the active, he should be on final.

And most importantly, I am not going to compromise my safety to clear the
pattern sooner.

Again, if I was on an ILS, and asked to keep my speed up, no problem since
it's a straight in approach and I do want to be courteous within my safety
limits. I have done ILS approaches at 110 knots which is only 10 knots
below my cruise speed, but I do also have a very long runway to bleed off
that speed. If I felt unsafe, then I would say to the controller unable
even if it meant I had to break off the approach per controller
instructions.

For standard pattern work at an uncontrolled airport, I will not go faster
then 70 knots abeam the numbers. I work hard to get the plane hands off
stabilized before turning base and I am not going to change my
configuration to accommodate a faster plane behind me.

Allen

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.

You can maintain that if you like, but that doesn't make it so. All it does
is cause others to question your knowledge and abilities.

Exactly. Antonio, dude... I got out the chart and drew a line parallel
to the runway and just touching the corner of the surface area of the
class bravo. It's well over a nautical mile from the runway
centerline. If you stay inside of a mile away from the runway and fly
the appropriate downwind heading, parallel to the runway and at pattern
altitude, you'll never touch the bravo. Pete has tried to say that
about a dozen times.

In my opinion (and I suspect most others), flying downwind over a mile
from the runway it too far out even if there isn't a potential class
bravo incursion/pilot deviation waiting for you just outside that
distance. My main reasoning is twofold: I'd like to be where others
might reasonably expect to find me, and I'd like to be sure I'm within
glide range of the runway in the event of an engine failure.

-R

A Lieberman wrote:

On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:24:20 +0000, Arketip wrote:


And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.


True, but by the time I turn base to final, I am only a 1/4 mile from the
end of the runway using the slower speed. If I go faster, my plane doesn't
like to slow down, and I end up remaining in the pattern a longer period of
time needing additional real estate to slow down.

A faster plane most likely would have to work a wider and longer pattern
then me anyway.

If that faster plane behind me keeps appropriate spacing behind me, since I
am using much less real estate in the pattern with my slower speed, by the
time I have landed, and cleared the active, he should be on final.

And most importantly, I am not going to compromise my safety to clear the
pattern sooner.

Again, if I was on an ILS, and asked to keep my speed up, no problem since
it's a straight in approach and I do want to be courteous within my safety
limits. I have done ILS approaches at 110 knots which is only 10 knots
below my cruise speed, but I do also have a very long runway to bleed off
that speed. If I felt unsafe, then I would say to the controller unable
even if it meant I had to break off the approach per controller
instructions.

For standard pattern work at an uncontrolled airport, I will not go faster
then 70 knots abeam the numbers. I work hard to get the plane hands off
stabilized before turning base and I am not going to change my
configuration to accommodate a faster plane behind me.

Allen

Good enough for me!

Proper phrasology for airspace violation:

N123 posible aircraft deviation suggest you call XYZ Tower/Aproach/etc
at xxx-xxx-xxxx

if your talking to the tower and didnt here this you arent going to
get busted. If controller 'A' is controlling you and they advice you
to follow another aircraft visual speration has been applied. As pilot
you may navigate in a manner to 'follow' that aircraft ie extend out to
follow in.

Controller A is responsible for ensuring aircraft under his control do
not violate an adjacent controllers/facilities airspace. ie. ABC
approach, XYZ tower "pont out' (on the land lines), xx miles east N123
landing XYZ. If your aircraft went into that airspace and the
controller busted you, he would get a 'deal' as well. Which no
controller wants.

Matt

Oops O and ya,

Call the tower and asked to speak with a controller, then ask if there
are any special pattern procedures for avoiding the B airspace so that
you can avoid confusion in the future, if there gruff and miserable
don't let it bug you.

NASA forms are always a good idea if your unsure, plus they help make
the whole system work better by offering a risk free honest feedback
system for improvements.

If you were recieving flight folowing it still exists until you hear
radar services terminated.

"Arketip" wrote in message
...
A Lieberman wrote:
FOR ME, by the time I am abeam the numbers, unless I am asked to keep my
speed up, I am at my final approach speed of 70 knots in my Sundowner.

And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.

Tough for them. It's not a race.

"Mike W." wrote in message
...

Tough for them. It's not a race.


Right. You fly your pattern any way you want and to hell with everyone
else.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Mike W." wrote in message
...

Tough for them. It's not a race.

Right. You fly your pattern any way you want and to hell with everyone
else.
The intent is not to waste others' time or **** them off, but I'm not going
to endanger my safety for any reason. Different planes fly and land at
different speeds. Unless everyone doing touch-and-gos is flying the same
plane, with the same landing configuration, etc., somebody will eventually
have to 360 or widen the pattern or something to adjust.

Rob wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
You mean flight into class B for landing at BFI is not *normally*
required. In this particular case I maintain it was for safe
separation.

You can maintain that if you like, but that doesn't make it so. All it does
is cause others to question your knowledge and abilities.

Exactly. Antonio, dude... I got out the chart and drew a line parallel
to the runway and just touching the corner of the surface area of the
class bravo. It's well over a nautical mile from the runway
centerline. If you stay inside of a mile away from the runway and fly
the appropriate downwind heading, parallel to the runway and at pattern
altitude, you'll never touch the bravo. Pete has tried to say that
about a dozen times.

Rob,

I am not sure of exactly where to put this post so I will just stick it
here and repeat it elsewhere in hopes that everyone will read it.

Due to the gallant efforts of Peter, Bob, Steve, Gary, you and a few
others I must humbly eat crow. You guys have made me see the light.

I have come to the conclusions that:

1. I flew too wide a pattern without regard to VFR references but only
paying attention to the aircraft that I had to follow. Looking back, I
suspect that I did not actually enter class B but was very close to it.
The controller warned me of that fact and I turned sufficiently early
because of that warning to avoid penetrating B airspace. This is why I
never got the infamous, "Call the tower..." message.

2. Though I am quite capable of flying a tight pattern with 14 years of
mountain flying under my belt, I got a bit lazy. I possibly turned my
downwind too wide, I think, causing me to be headed for the closest
part of B airspace from the get-go. B airspace is about 3/4 mile or so
from the end of the runway if one is too wide as I understand it.

2.5 It is quite possible to fly safely in this area and avoiding B
airspace if one is aware of the VFR landmarks. Pete is correct... So is
the unnamed famous author that wrote me privately. ;-)

3. I became stubborn and positioned myself as if a lawyer defending a
position for a client and lost the big picture. It was fun though and
I learned alot! :-)

4. As has been pointed out, I sort of expected ATC to bail me out of my
lazy piloting by blaming them for not sequencing me properly. Had I
been on the ball I would have slowed or s-turned ( but no 360 ! ) and
turned a tighter pattern.

5. I may have insulted some here. I apologize for that. Especially to
Pete for my crack about seeing a psychologist. I hope you know that I
don't think you are crazy all the time. ;-)

6. Though I am still a bit hazy on the tiny details of the legal
responsibilities of ATC in this, I am sure that they acted
appropriately within the boundaries of what was traditionally expected.


In conclusion, ( I hope!) let me say that you all have made me see
things more clearly and have helped this pilot to be a little safer. I
thank you all.

Sincerly,

Antonio