Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

In article .com, Antoñio wrote:
Not so Pete... The controller told me to "follow the Arrow" . To do so
*safely* (in my opinion) required I extend the downwind leg right into
class B.

If there was a cloud at the boundary of the class B, what would you have
done?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , Arketip wrote:

FOR ME, by the time I am abeam the numbers, unless I am asked to keep my
speed up, I am at my final approach speed of 70 knots in my Sundowner.

And everybody behind has to slow down too or extend downwind if flying a
faster aircraft.

Flying the circuit (pattern) is not an exercise in doing it in a rigidly
set way every time. You have to have situational awareness and choose
the appropriate action.

Having been in a Bonanza following a Cub, and been in a Cessna 140 being
followed by a Bonanza in the past, so long as everyone is looking and
listening it's not rocket science. If I'm being followed by faster
traffic, and I'm in a slow plane, I will make a very tight pattern so
that the following faster traffic doesn't get cramped behind me. If I'm
in a fast plane following a slow one, I'll put some flaps out and slow
down. If someone's flying a wide pattern and I'm behind, I'll slow down
so I don't have to also fly a massive pattern, however, if there's a
LearJet right behind me, I may exit the pattern to allow the jet to go
ahead and rejoin behind it.

It's always a matter of judgement what the best course of action is - no
one action is necessarily always correct.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Good practice. This is what I teach my primary students. We fly out of
KLUK, a Class D airport under the KCVG Class B shelf. Really easy to
bust B, and with a FSDO at KLUK, well...bad things tend to happen then.
I teach my students that until they hear *specifically* "cleared into
Class B", they are to assume they are not, regardless of who they are
talking to, and regardless of what instructions they are given. I tell
my students to always say "understand cleared into Bravo, 49F". If
there is *any* doubt whatsoever, then ask the controller. Situational
awareness is paramount in any circumstance, but when flying around
congested, complex airspace, it becomes even more so. And this isn't
just pedantic, or because I don't want to see my students
benched...KCVG has MD88s and 737s flying around like mosquitos...and I
have a couple of accident reports printed out for my students to hit
home the importance of being careful.

Cheers,

Cap

Guillermo wrote:



Sometimes I think I have been cleared through a class bravo without really
hearing the word "cleared", I think it depends on the situation, who are you
talking to, etc:

Cessna 5GT: Atlanta approach, cessna 5GT, 15 miles south of ATL, 5500 ft,
request transition on the class B to fly over ATL

ATL approach: Cessna 5GT, squawk 1234

ATL approach: Cessna 5GT, radar contact, descend and maintain 5000, fly
heading 010
(which takes me straight over ATL)

Cessna 5GT: descend to 5000, heading 010.

In this case, it is very clear that the controller is vectoring me inside
the class B airspace,

And everytime the FAA has busted a pilot for this the FAA loses. If the
approach controller gives you a vector that brings you into the class B
that is good enough.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
It isn't proper for a Class B approach controller to issue a heading or
altitude to a VFR aircraft outside of Class B airspace.

And yet it happens all the time with flight following here (MSP). For
instance, a few weeks ago I was using FF returning from EAU to FCM
(Minneapolis Flying Cloud, southwest of the Cities and under the Class
B). When center handed me off to approach, I was told "Maintain VFR, fly
direct Farmington, direct Flying Cloud." No, not a heading per se, but
as good as one. And on numerous other occasions I *have* been issued a
heading that accomplished the same thing.

"Rich Ahrens" wrote in message
...

And yet it happens all the time with flight following here (MSP). For
instance, a few weeks ago I was using FF returning from EAU to FCM
(Minneapolis Flying Cloud, southwest of the Cities and under the Class B).
When center handed me off to approach, I was told "Maintain VFR, fly
direct Farmington, direct Flying Cloud." No, not a heading per se, but as
good as one. And on numerous other occasions I *have* been issued a
heading that accomplished the same thing.


Just say no. You're operating VFR in Class E airspace, ATC has no authority
to issue a route or heading to you and no reason to do so either.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Rich Ahrens" wrote in message
...

And yet it happens all the time with flight following here (MSP). For
instance, a few weeks ago I was using FF returning from EAU to FCM
(Minneapolis Flying Cloud, southwest of the Cities and under the Class B).
When center handed me off to approach, I was told "Maintain VFR, fly
direct Farmington, direct Flying Cloud." No, not a heading per se, but as
good as one. And on numerous other occasions I *have* been issued a
heading that accomplished the same thing.

Just say no. You're operating VFR in Class E airspace, ATC has no
authority to issue a route or heading to you and no reason to do
so either.

Of course. However, the next thing I hear will probably be "Traffic
advisories terminated, squawk 1200." Playing along isn't much of a
delay, if any, and flight following is worth it to me in that environment.

"Rich Ahrens" wrote in message
...

Of course. However, the next thing I hear will probably be "Traffic
advisories terminated, squawk 1200." Playing along isn't much of a delay,
if any, and flight following is worth it to me in that environment.


Yup.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

Just say no. You're operating VFR in Class E airspace, ATC has no
authority
to issue a route or heading to you and no reason to do so either.

Traffic avoidance maybe?
Isn't that one of the reasons you are requesting flight following for?

Also, a slight change of course may make his job easier.

What is the point of asking for flight following if you don't want to do
what ATC recommends?

I would agree that if you get a crazy instruction from ATC which will take
you off course by a lot, I would tell him that I don't want to fly that, but
I don't see the point of not collaborating with ATC if the instructions are
reasonable.

"Guillermo" wrote in message
...

Why?


Because the rules don't allow it.



you could be doing fight following and he can recommend a heading for
traffic avoidance. Are they not allowed to do that?


Yes, headings can be suggested.



Also, if you want to transition the class bravo, they may give you a
heading before you enter the class B so they place you somewhere where you
can
transition the class bravo airspace safely. If I am coming heading towards
the approach end of a runway, they may want to vector me out towards the
center of the airport before I enter the class B.


Yes, they can require you to enter Class B airspace at a specific point, and
they can suggest headings to help you to do that.