2nd-Guessing Accidents (aka Seeking Personal Insight)

On 21/05/2012 02:09, Fox Two wrote:
While I’m tempted to take the bait, Walt, I’m not going to bite on
any of the off-topic subjects you’ve left hanging. I will point out,
however, that your prejudice against the French (what is this anyway,
1760?!) is a textbook barrier to communication, and therefore safety.
If anyone has a better and safer way of doing something, you check
your pride and ego at the door, and listen to what it is they have to
say, regardless of where they’re from, what language they speak,
their gender or the color of their skin.

I don't have a dog in the France/USA fight but it was said earlier that
France's accident record was surprisingly bad - worse in fact than the
US. In this area the proof of a 'better and safer way of doing
something' is in the statistics and it appears they may not support your
case.

I read your description of the French (well, Fayence) system carefully
and it appeared well constructed to allocate scarce - and quite valuable
- club resources with a reasonable appearance of fairness and an eye to
the avoidance of internal disputes.

As a safety system, however, the level of bureaucratic detail seemed to
make it mainly an exercise in credentialism. What is the safety aspect
of arriving by 9am? In a club, cronyism also often undermines many
safety efforts.

What is Fayence's accident record?

GC


Moving on: I agree completely with Tom’s perspective of the SSA’s
ABC Badge program: it offers the greatest opportunity for a new
pilot to get that desperately needed initial guidance. The problem
with the program, though, is that it isn’t mandatory. I myself am
one of the Texan SSA Instructors, and I introduced the ABC Program to
my former club there to help improve training and safety. The
problem was that it wasn’t embraced by the club’s ‘ruling members,’
and it never took hold.

In France, the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale’s (FAI) ABC
Badge program continues through D, E and F, which basically coincides
with the Silver, Gold and Diamond Badges in the USA. Beyond
achieving the distance, altitude and duration requirements of each
badge, training is required for each badge as well. While not
required by the DGAC (French FAA) for pilot certification, the A-F
Badges are encouraged by the FFVV (French SSA) through financial
incentives to clubs who participate (a benefit of a socialist
culture); therefore participation is near 100%.

Tom is correct when he says that additional training is available in
the USA for pilots who seek it out, and he practices what he
preaches: Tom helped me when I sought him out (Thanks, Tom!), and we
each drove many hours to have our discussions. Unfortunately, only a
small minority of pilots are willing to make the effort to get
high-quality training.

The same accidents repeat themselves every year, and so many die
unnecessarily. Tom again is exactly right when he says that we need
to educate towards better awareness of what can go wrong. But as
long as advanced training remains merely optional, a gaping hole will
remain in the safety net.

Chris Fleming F2

You, sir, are correct on everything you said about American whining,
lawsuits, need for safety, etc., except for Kerry. He's just a plain douche
bag.

BTW, I'm a proud American, but not proud of what our great country is
turning into.


"gotovkotzepkoi" wrote in
message ...

Walt Connelly;814912 Wrote:
Chris, my nationalist pride is intact, I am an American..'nuff said.
We, like every other country in the world have changes to make and I am
confident that we will make them come November. Good luck to the French
with their newly elected Socialist leader. My ego is fine, I keep it in
check especially when I am flying. To do otherwise is to invite
calamity and I avoid calamity at every coordinated turn.

I agree with much of what you say but I look to examples other than the
French most of the time. I've had many encounters with the French, none
of them good. The Spanish, Italians, Germans, Brits, Swedes, Japanese,
Vietnamese, Koreans and others have sustained my faith in humanity
otherwise.

Lets face it though, the two Air France pilots who collided with a tow
plane of late did not do your cause any good. While learning to fly
cross country is an admirable accomplishment....learning to fly with
your head on a swivel and outside the cockpit is equally important.
This is a dangerous sport considering the number of accidents per number
of participants. We should be doing a better job of identifying the
cause of these accidents in a more timely manner and insuring that those
who wish to be kept informed have access to the why, what and how.

Soar on my friend and try to understand that the French amuse me and
keeping me amused is a good thing.

Walt

Some time ago, before getting into sailplanes, I flew hang gliders in
the Alps. For many years I was in the Army in Germany and used to going
hang gliding in Provence in southern France for 2 or 3 weeks every
summer. I always found the French to be friendly and gracious. About the
same as other Europeans. That's why the American tendency to bash the
French always bothers me. Why does it exist? Here's my theory: American
conservatives associate France with cuisine, culture, perfume, fashion,
wine...subjects essentially feminine in nature. Take Germany. Why don't
the Germans get hammered by American conservatives? Simple, it's because
Germany in the neocon weltanschauing is associated with spiked helmets,
tanks, BMWs, engineering, Krupp steel, beer....masculine stuff. Bottom
line, the poorly developed and threatened masculinity of many Americans
causes fears that a positive nod toward anything French threatens their
machismo. Utter anything slightly positve about France in the US and
your political career as a republican is dead. Example: Kerry spoke
French?! Into windsurfing and not football? How dare him, must be a
eurof..g! That's the train of thought. In my rambles in the French Alps
I found the French to be hard core adventurers. There aren't signs
everywhere to watch your step, etc. People there are treated as adults.
Furthermore, you could hang glide off pretty much anything and never
worry about some land owner forbidding your because of liability risks.
The French and most other Europeans accept that they are responsible if
they screw up and hurt themselves doing something dangerous. If they
break a leg crashking into a field or burn their lips on too hot coffee
they don't run off an whine to some judge that the land owner or coffee
shop owner now owes them 1 million dollars. Not so for many of the
pampered, spoiled, whiners in the US.




--
gotovkotzepkoi

On May 19, 12:19*pm, Fox Two wrote:
On Saturday, May 19, 2012 2:44:35 PM UTC+2, Walt Connelly wrote:

Always good to know how the French do things......what's next?
*Telling
us to go to England to get our teeth fixed? *Once again American
Culture
taking it on the chin.

Walt
A lowly American glider pilot sheep looking for a shepherd.

Walt,

I’m sorry if I’ve offended your nationalistic pride or your personal ego; that was not my intention. * The fact is that new, low-time pilots need guidance, and that guidance isn’t available at the typical American club. *Yes, accidents transcend all skill and experience levels, and certainly all nationalities, but higher quality training is unarguably the best solution to preventing accidents and improving pilots’ skills.

My favorite quote from my British winch instructor at Lasham Field was how he described low-experience pilots: he called them “unconsciously incompetent;” they simply don’t know what they don’t know. * The German instructor at the Schempp-Hirth factory directly attributed the safety and success of German glider pilots to that country’s comprehensive training program. *And my French mountain instructor here at Fayence opined that there is so much to learn that it would take many lifetimes to learn without guidance; we simply don’t have that much time. *Whether the subject is launches & landings or MacCready theory, a new pilot is simply oblivious to the countless risks and nuances of our sport. *We as Americans should embrace the successful training techniques of others, and not be quick to dismiss them simply because of our nationalistic pride or personal ego.

I’ll be the first to acknowledge that it is unrealistic to change the American system of training glider pilots. *As an instructor, after congratulating my students on a successful check-ride, I did my best to delicately explain that they had only achieved the MINIMUM requirements to be a certified pilot; a lifetime of learning awaited them. *I, for one, practice what I preach.

I wish I was soaring too!

Chris Fleming
F2

I think there is some truth in the assertion that instructors with
real soaring experience are better instructors. FAI Badges are a way
to show that experience. Without exception, the best instructors I
have known have Diamond Badges. The worst have no badges.

It's not so much that badges and cross country experience makes
instructors better pilots and teachers, although that may be true. But
it does show that are fully engaged with the sport of soaring. That
engagement changes the way they instruct for the better.

The European insistence that their pilots achieve advanced soaring
skills is a good thing. I, for one, am willing to listen to them.

Changing the subject back to safety. A pilot can make a million
perfect decisions but he will be remembered by the bad one that killed
him. Flying involves placing yourself in an unforgiving situation.
Understanding that at the instinctive, gut level keeps the good
decisions coming.

‘Gotov’ is exactly right: it’s impossible to determine a meaningful glider safety record of a country, because it would need to include a ratio of flights and/or flight hours to accidents. For example: If country ‘A’ had only 1 glider flight, and that glider crashed, they would have had only 1 glider accident, and if country ‘B’ had 10,000 glider flights, and 2 of them crashed, they would have had twice as many accidents as country ‘A,’ but they could definitely be considered the safer country. Unfortunately, countries only publish how many accidents they’ve had, and not how many flights or hours flown they’ve had, so we’ll never know who’s safety record is “good” or “bad,” or who’s “better” or “worse.”

With that said, yes, France has a lot of accidents, and there are reasons why. First, we have a lot of glider flights… A LOT! While the total number of flights isn’t published, in just the southeast corner of France alone there are several dozen glider clubs each launching several dozen gliders every day, all year long, weather permitting. Run the numbers: that’s a lot of gliders! Second, the terrain in the Alps is some of the most challenging and unforgiving terrain in the world to soar; it is inherently more dangerous to fly there, and will therefore raise the accident count. Nearly half of all the glider accidents in France occur in the Alps. Third, many foreign pilots come to France to fly. Many of those pilots fly their own gliders and few are members of a French club and therefore don’t benefit from the French training. Nearly one quarter of all accidents in France are by foreign pilots.

‘GC’ asked about the safety benefit of a mandatory 9am pilot briefing. Nearly one quarter of all accidents in France are in some way weather related. The most important feature of the morning pilot briefing is a thorough review of the weather. How many times have you asked a club member what they could expect from the day’s weather and they responded by looking up at the sky? That casual attitude in the mountains is a death sentence.

As you’re a tough crowd, I’ve carefully fact-checked myself against a French safety review which documents the statistics I’ve mentioned. The review is over 10 years old, but it’s better than nothing! If you're interested, follow this link to the review:

http://www.bea.aero/etudes/volavoile...le19992001.pdf

Chris Fleming
F2

As a brit i can't comment on the US training other than to say I guess
there are good and less good instructors in all countries.

I trained in the UK under the BGA system but have done most of my flying
for the past few years in the French Alps and can second what has
previously been said by Chris Fleming. When I flew at St Auban in late
March this year we were told at morning briefing that there were probably
around 750 gliders flying in the Alps that week! The importance of good
lookout, Flarm, and conspicuity marking are stressed again and again as is
general good airmanship and the need to maintain speed and attitude when
near the ridges. To argue that there is no safety purpose to a morning
briefing is bizarre.

I also know an ex commercial Canadian pilot who flys at St Auban and he has
tried flying gliders in the US and his opinions of the instruction is not
flattering whereas he thinks the instruction he has received in the Alps
is excellent. perhaps he just went to the place where the instructors are
less good.

More to the point of instruction in the USA, my instruction consisted of
training to solo as I already held an ATP rating. After flying 20 solo
flights and a check flight, I received a commercial add-on to my license.
After that, I was completely on my own to learn cross country.

A friend shephearded me around the sky for a while until I finally got
outside of gliding distance of the field. Again, I was on my own for all my
badges up to and including the Diamond Badge.

It seems that not many of the US instructors are cross country glider
pilots. I know there are some and, where I work, the instructor/DPE also
flies cross country in his glider, but, in my experience, he's the
exception.


"Mike Oliver" wrote in message
. com...

As a brit i can't comment on the US training other than to say I guess
there are good and less good instructors in all countries.

I trained in the UK under the BGA system but have done most of my flying
for the past few years in the French Alps and can second what has
previously been said by Chris Fleming. When I flew at St Auban in late
March this year we were told at morning briefing that there were probably
around 750 gliders flying in the Alps that week! The importance of good
lookout, Flarm, and conspicuity marking are stressed again and again as is
general good airmanship and the need to maintain speed and attitude when
near the ridges. To argue that there is no safety purpose to a morning
briefing is bizarre.

I also know an ex commercial Canadian pilot who flys at St Auban and he
has
tried flying gliders in the US and his opinions of the instruction is not
flattering whereas he thinks the instruction he has received in the Alps
is excellent. perhaps he just went to the place where the instructors are
less good.

On May 19, 6:57*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
'Fox Two[_2_ Wrote:









;814907']On Saturday, May 19, 2012 2:44:35 PM UTC+2, Walt Connelly
wrote:--

Always good to know how the French do things......what's next?
*Telling
us to go to England to get our teeth fixed? *Once again American
Culture
taking it on the chin.

Walt
A lowly American glider pilot sheep looking for a shepherd.
--

Walt,

I m sorry if I ve offended your nationalistic pride or your personal
ego; that was not my intention. * The fact is that new, low-time pilots
need guidance, and that guidance isn t available at the typical American
club. *Yes, accidents transcend all skill and experience levels, and
certainly all nationalities, but higher quality training is unarguably
the best solution to preventing accidents and improving pilots skills.

My favorite quote from my British winch instructor at Lasham Field was
how he described low-experience pilots: he called them unconsciously
incompetent; they simply don t know what they don t know. * The German
instructor at the Schempp-Hirth factory directly attributed the safety
and success of German glider pilots to that country s comprehensive
training program. *And my French mountain instructor here at Fayence
opined that there is so much to learn that it would take many lifetimes
to learn without guidance; we simply don t have that much time. *Whether
the subject is launches & landings or MacCready theory, a new pilot is
simply oblivious to the countless risks and nuances of our sport. *We as
Americans should embrace the successful training techniques of others,
and not be quick to dismiss them simply because of our nationalistic
pride or personal ego.

I ll be the first to acknowledge that it is unrealistic to change the
American system of training glider pilots. *As an instructor, after
congratulating my students on a successful check-ride, I did my best to
delicately explain that they had only achieved the MINIMUM requirements
to be a certified pilot; a lifetime of learning awaited them. *I, for
one, practice what I preach.

I wish I was soaring too!

Chris Fleming
F2

Chris, *my nationalist pride is intact, I am an American..'nuff said.
We, like every other country in the world have changes to make and I am
confident that we will make them come November. *Good luck to the French
with their newly elected Socialist leader. *My ego is fine, I keep it in
check especially when I am flying. *To do otherwise is to invite
calamity and I avoid calamity at every coordinated turn.

I agree with much of what you say but I look to examples other than the
French most of the time. *I've had many encounters with the French, none
of them good. The Spanish, Italians, Germans, Brits, Swedes, Japanese,
Vietnamese, Koreans and others have sustained my faith in humanity
otherwise.

Lets face it though, the two Air France pilots who collided with a tow
plane of late did not do your cause any good. *While learning to fly
cross country is an admirable accomplishment....learning to fly with
your head on a swivel and outside the cockpit is equally important.
This is a dangerous sport considering the number of accidents per number
of participants. *We should be doing a better job of identifying the
cause of these accidents in a more timely manner and insuring that those
who wish to be kept informed have access to the why, what and how.

Soar on my friend and try to understand that the French amuse me and
keeping me amused is a good thing.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Walt,

Your smirking and borderline hateful attitude toward the French is
unfortunately common in this country. Maybe the fact that they have
avowed Socialists in their midst and even allow them to elected office
is a factor. Dont' know how old you are but try and open your mind to
be surprised by the French culture, history, contributions to
aviation, science and art. During my many visits to that country I
have never experienced prejudice of the kind you are indicating in
your posts. As a German who speaks French well I always felt welcome
to share their true love of soaring in beautiful Provence (I miss
those trips).

Herb Kilian

On 5/21/2012 9:18 PM, Herbert kilian wrote:
On May 19, 6:57 pm, Walt ConnellyWalt.Connelly.
wrote:
'Fox Two[_2_ Wrote:


;814907']On Saturday, May 19, 2012 2:44:35 PM UTC+2, Walt Connelly
wrote:--

Always good to know how the French do things......what's next?
*Telling
us to go to England to get our teeth fixed? *Once again American
Culture
taking it on the chin.

Walt
A lowly American glider pilot sheep looking for a shepherd.
--

Walt,

I m sorry if I ve offended your nationalistic pride or your personal
ego; that was not my intention. The fact is that new, low-time pilots
need guidance, and that guidance isn t available at the typical American
club. Yes, accidents transcend all skill and experience levels, and
certainly all nationalities, but higher quality training is unarguably
the best solution to preventing accidents and improving pilots skills.



Chris, my nationalist pride is intact, I am an American..'nuff said.

--
Walt Connelly

Walt,

Your smirking and borderline hateful attitude toward the French is
unfortunately common in this country. Maybe the fact that they have
avowed Socialists in their midst and even allow them to elected office
is a factor. Dont' know how old you are but try and open your mind to
be surprised by the French culture, history, contributions to
aviation, science and art. During my many visits to that country I
have never experienced prejudice of the kind you are indicating in
your posts. As a German who speaks French well I always felt welcome
to share their true love of soaring in beautiful Provence (I miss
those trips).

Herb Kilian

Sneering superiority - an actual Ugly American.

Dismissive of other cultures and as for "I am an American..'nuff said."

Oh dear.

Andy (not American, English or French)