PowerFlarm Update?

You are correct - it would be easy for the OGN guys to realize such a feature. BUT: They don´t want it and are strictly against an opt in/opt out.

Flarm had to react, otherwise they would have lost a lot of customers.

There are a lot of people here in germany who don't want to be tracked or at least want the freedom to decide. This kind of stuff really hits a nerve here and there was one of the longest threads I have seen sofar in the german gliding forum. There was a big outcry for an opt out option. Unfortunatly not all OGN operators feel there should be an opt out option. The problem seemed to be that OGN is an initiative of individuals. That means there is no central entity to discuss privacy requirements with or to enforce an opt out implementation. So basically it doesn't help that the solution might be technically trivial.

Tracking of individuals without consent also might touch strict german data privavcy laws - even though it would need a court ruling to clarify whether tracking a glider is already sufficiently linked to the piloting individual.

It seems that Flarm and also Butterfly Avionic (removing FlarmNet databases) took this topic quite seriously. In the end Flarm chose to end the discussion by taking the intiative. A new encryption should disable OGN short term and long term a Flarm organised solution will probably transfer OGN operators into Flarm control enforcing opt-out.

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 6:25:39 PM UTC-4, pcool wrote:

There is no other reason to change the protocol and not keep it backward
compatible.


There's at least one good reason to change and that's the update to stealth mode. New mode makes much more sense than old. No silly position/climb "degradation" of tactical info, simply eliminate tactical stuff symmetrically unless the gliders are "read each other's tail numbers" close.

Evan Ludeman / T8

Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard to
deal with, at all.


"Alexander Swagemakers" wrote in message
...

There are a lot of people here in germany who don't want to be tracked or at
least want the freedom to decide. This kind of stuff really hits a nerve
here and there was one of the longest threads I have seen sofar in the
german gliding forum. There was a big outcry for an opt out option.
Unfortunatly not all OGN operators feel there should be an opt out option.
The problem seemed to be that OGN is an initiative of individuals. That
means there is no central entity to discuss privacy requirements with or to
enforce an opt out implementation. So basically it doesn't help that the
solution might be technically trivial.

Tracking of individuals without consent also might touch strict german data
privavcy laws - even though it would need a court ruling to clarify whether
tracking a glider is already sufficiently linked to the piloting individual.

It seems that Flarm and also Butterfly Avionic (removing FlarmNet databases)
took this topic quite seriously. In the end Flarm chose to end the
discussion by taking the intiative. A new encryption should disable OGN
short term and long term a Flarm organised solution will probably transfer
OGN operators into Flarm control enforcing opt-out.

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard to
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary product that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets hacked and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by protecting their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a market demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such as privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal) hacked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66

At 15:30 14 March 2015, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
track=
er=20
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm
to=
=20
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad=20
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard
t=
o=20
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary
product=
that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets
hack=
ed and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by
protecting=
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a
mark=
et demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such
as
=
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
ha=
cked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66

What leads you to believe that Flarm's encryption was 'Hacked' and the
decryption algorithms not provided by FLARM (as Binary code)?

I also find the idea that update 6.0 was made just to disable OGN Tracking
strange, when the update was planned years ago before OGN existed.

But don’t you worry, there are only two OGN stations in US, of which only
one seems to be operational, so it is unlikely to affect you.

At 15:30 14 March 2015, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
track=
er=20
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm
to=
=20
get the data decrypted.

Good luck with that, most OGN tracking stations will probably go off air
until
the OGN tracker is released rather than support FLARM out of their own
pocket!!!

Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad=20
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard
t=
o=20
deal with, at all.

Privacy was a non issue, if you put your details on the (previously) open
and
public flarmnet database then you presumably had no worries about your
public data being public!
If you did not put your data on the database then your glider was assigned
a
random and temporary ID so there was no issue with privacy as you could
only be identified if someone watched you take off and manually noted what

random ID you had been assigned for that day! If someone was going to that

length then OGN tracking would be the least of your worries.


I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary
product=
that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets
hack=
ed and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by
protecting=
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a
mark=
et demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such
as
=
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
ha=
cked OGN network.


There was NO hacking involved, all the data was transmitted in clear text (

the anti collision protocol is the only "proprietary " part and OGN were
not
interested in that) the airband is a public and unlicensed one so there was
no
wrongdoing.
There has been no similar criticism of the other tracking network (it's
name
escapes me for the moment) that uses FLARM recievers to feed a central
server, this won't be affected by the update and can access all the data
with
ease!
The trouble started when FlarmNet changed the terms of their open database

and started to slander OGN with the barely hidden support of their
financial
backers (FLARM)
There were a lot of lies put about to try and discredit the OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

YES


Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66

Very interesting perspective indeed. You buy a device, and it is not
written it expires.
Now see the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT just released.
Do you want to download the firmware (otherwise the old one expires)? Then
you must agree on the new rules.
Point 3 . It is understood that the software has an expiry date and must be
replaced once per year.

It is not written anywhere that the firmware will be always provided for
free, forever.
On the contrary, they put a pramble: an update to the similar TCAS system
costs $20.000-$50.000 per aircraft
And now you also need to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program.
great deal, indeed.




"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard to
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary product
that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets hacked
and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by protecting
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a market
demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such as
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
hacked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66

Flarm Firmware Updates have always been free. What makes you think that
will change?

The advice from Flarm has always be to take the free updates every year,
but that does not mean your Flarm will cease to work if you dont, that only
happens every N years.

You seem to be seeing problems where none exist.


At 18:49 14 March 2015, pcool wrote:
Very interesting perspective indeed. You buy a device, and it is not
written it expires.
Now see the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT just released.
Do you want to download the firmware (otherwise the old one expires)? Then

you must agree on the new rules.
Point 3 . It is understood that the software has an expiry date and must
be
replaced once per year.

It is not written anywhere that the firmware will be always provided for
free, forever.
On the contrary, they put a pramble: an update to the similar TCAS system

costs $20.000-$50.000 per aircraft
And now you also need to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program.
great deal, indeed.




"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm
to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard
to
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary
product

that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets
hacked
and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by protecting
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a
market
demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such as
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
hacked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:00:05 AM UTC-5, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

What leads you to believe that Flarm's encryption was 'Hacked' and the
decryption algorithms not provided by FLARM (as Binary code)?

Well, an article in Gliding International, "Giving Gliding A Totally New Spectator Experience", by Aldo Cernezzi, pretty much describes what happened in detail, even to the hardware and software needed to setup a Flarm monitoring station and be part of the Open Glider Network.

I also find the idea that update 6.0 was made just to disable OGN Tracking
strange, when the update was planned years ago before OGN existed.

Perhaps the last minute changes to add privacy is what caused the delay?

But don't you worry, there are only two OGN stations in US, of which only
one seems to be operational, so it is unlikely to affect you.

Oh, I'm not worried in the least - I'm fine with being tracked! It's the attitude that Flarm deserved to be hacked "for the good of the masses" that I find odd.

And with the paucity of Flarms in the US glider fleet, it really will be a while before this interesting evolution of Flarm impacts the general US gliding world. I do expect it to become a big player at US contests, where Flarm is pretty much mandatory.

Kirk