Manual

On Jan 18, 12:16*am, T wrote:
On Jan 17, 6:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:









On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

I know the LS4 and most LS are probably included, also the Grob 103
Twin II require the POH in the glider.
Never know when the ramp check agent will show up.

T

I believe aircraft type certificated after March 1, 1979 have
different manual requirements than those typed prior (FAR 21.5).

On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:



You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:



You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.

On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? Anyway,
it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
Rotorcraft Flight Manual? My type certified glider has an approved
"Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
or any combination I choose?

As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. Para 7 says
"Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing he

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...er/8620_2A.pdf

-Dave (not a lawyer)

On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

On Jan 18, 10:27*am, Dave wrote:
On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D wrote:









On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? *Anyway,
it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
Rotorcraft Flight Manual? *My type certified glider has an approved
"Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
or any combination I choose?

As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. *Para 7 says
"Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing he

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...er/8620_2A.pdf

-Dave (not a lawyer)

Yes, 91.9 not 91.309.

91.9 requires the AFM to be on board and that the aircraft be operated
in accordance with it.

8620.21a is referring to "mandatory" service bulletins not being
enforceable.

On Jan 18, 11:26*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D wrote:









On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

On 18 jan, 14:51, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 18, 11:26*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:





On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D wrote:

On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

AFM = Approved Flight Manual. * The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. *A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. *AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

- Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

Well, nobody answered my question, can I use a copy on a memory stick?
Thank you
S6

On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 18, 11:26 am, wrote:


What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?

Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
minutes to find.

Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Eric,

It is threads like this that makes me thankful that I am flying a "home
built" sailplane!!! The closest thing to a manual is the one-page
"flight-test" recommendations from the building instructions.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F'
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F




"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ...

On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 18, 11:26 am, wrote:


What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?

Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
minutes to find.

Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz