Landout Laws

"Chip Bearden" wrote in message
om...

(trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff)

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a
little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in
SOARING.

Vaughn

Vaughn wrote:

"Chip Bearden" wrote in message
om...

(trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff)

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden


This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a
little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in
SOARING.

I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 03:36 15 February 2004, Chip Bearden wrote:
If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to
avoid bending to
extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression
is that if the
farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes
liability if
anything should occur. Most officers of the law are
likely to be
helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with
the owner. If it
starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local
police/sheriff
often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually
doesn't expect
the trespasser to call the police.

A couple of years ago, I landed out while flying from
the Blue Ridge Soaring Society's field in New Castle,
VA. While I was only seven miles or so from the airfield,
the owner of the field I landed in wasn't very pleased.
In my case, there was no need to call for law enforcement
because I landed in the field owned by the County Sheriff.
When I approached the house nearest to the field,
I noticed a sheriff's car in the driveway. Was the
sheriff there on business? No, he lived there. As
the door opened, it's opening was filled with a big
man in a clean, pressed with razor-sharp creases, uniform.
Oh yes, there was a BIG gun in the holster around
his hips. Oh boy.

He was a bit miffed. He explained while motioning
with his hands, 'I've had gliders land in this field
and I've had gliders land in that field, BUT I'VE NEVER
HAD A GLIDER LAND IN MY HAY FIELD.' Gulp. He continued,
'But, it is the smoothest field.' I didn't say anything.

He didn't ask for anything and he didn't get ugly.
He just told me to drive the retrieve car as close
to the fence inside the field as possible and don't
drive right down through the hay. The time of year
was early May and the 'orchard grass' hay was about
a foot high.

I tried my best at 'Land-Out Diplomacy' and I hope
the next time someone (it could be me) lands in that
same hay field, the Sheriff will be understanding.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

I agree with Vaughn, this thread had me paying close attention.

I haven't started my x-country career yet, but in the limited reading I've done, the legality aspect was hardly addressed. I had thought that pilots had some legal right to land on private property, for safety's sake, much like people on the ground have a basic right of access through another's private property if that's the only reasonable way to get there.

-tw

There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little
addressing the legalities.

I was shooting some clay birds with a lawyer yesterday, and I asked him
about the applicable law. He knows nothing about aviation law, and the
matter
of rights to make a forced landing, but he could comment on the trespass.
He said that there are two kinds of trespass,
criminal and civil. In this instance, as evidenced by the call to the
Sheriff,
there was no criminal intent, and hence there was no
criminal trespass. However, as we broke the chain, there is a case for
civil trespass. For this, the land owner is entitled to be compensated for
his "damages". As it was pasture, there was no crop damage. He suffered
only
the loss of one link in a three foot chain, and his time.

It was legal information I was looking for, and the trespass issue seems
fairly simple.
I am still looking for information on the legalities of the forced landing,
but the courtesy
advice is well taken by all of us who fly X/C.


"Charles Petersen" wrote in message
...
We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.

At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original post,
but very little
addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision
in this state on this matter.

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original post,
but very little
addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision
in this state on this matter.

I suspect that most of the "problems" have been in areas with higher
population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated, western USA, a lot
of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to run cattle. That which
is in private hands is often operated by hired hands for the absentee
landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad land grant dating
from the construction of the transcontinental railroad and farmed by leasee
who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached by someone representing
himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure that this person is,
in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab a fast buck.

Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and pilot ready to depart
with no locals having made an appearance. In this case, the legal and
proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff and report the
"emergency landing" and provide contact information along with the exact
Lat/long of the landing point although some would, no doubt, choose to
quietly depart.

In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting the landowner, I
have been impressed by the hospitality. The only "problem" was a Nebraska
farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because, I suspect, she just
wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town all that often.

Bill Daniels

At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Nyal Williams' wrote in message
...
At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original
post,
but very little
addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly
true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal
decision
in this state on this matter.

I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in
areas with higher
population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated,
western USA, a lot
of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to
run cattle. That which
is in private hands is often operated by hired hands
for the absentee
landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad
land grant dating
from the construction of the transcontinental railroad
and farmed by leasee
who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached
by someone representing
himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure
that this person is,
in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab
a fast buck.

Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and
pilot ready to depart
with no locals having made an appearance. In this
case, the legal and
proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff
and report the
'emergency landing' and provide contact information
along with the exact
Lat/long of the landing point although some would,
no doubt, choose to
quietly depart.

In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting
the landowner, I
have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem'
was a Nebraska
farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because,
I suspect, she just
wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town
all that often.

Bill Daniels

It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
As a protection before starting the season, know
in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
these figures quietly in mind.

I'm not a lawyer, however, as I understand it, an off field landing comes
under the heading of, "Any port in a storm maritime law."

It is the same law permitting one to break into a cabin for survival
purposes rather than die of exposure.

You are still liable for damages, but can not be held for "Trespass."

In case of a dispute, your best friend is the police, 2nd your insurance
company.


--
Thomas Knauff
Knauff & Grove, Inc.
Schempp-Hirth Sailplanes
3523 South Eagle Valley Road
Julian, Pa 16844
Phone (814) 355 2483
Fax (814) 355 2633
www.eglider.org


"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Nyal Williams' wrote in message
...
At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original
post,
but very little
addressing the legalities.

I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts
in mostly farming country with few problems.

This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly
true;
I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books
that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere
except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law
was enacted back when engines were not very reliable
and farmers kept getting crops destroyed.

The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure
that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and
a glider would not make any difference in a legal
decision
in this state on this matter.

I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in
areas with higher
population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated,
western USA, a lot
of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to
run cattle. That which
is in private hands is often operated by hired hands
for the absentee
landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad
land grant dating
from the construction of the transcontinental railroad
and farmed by leasee
who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached
by someone representing
himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure
that this person is,
in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab
a fast buck.

Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and
pilot ready to depart
with no locals having made an appearance. In this
case, the legal and
proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff
and report the
'emergency landing' and provide contact information
along with the exact
Lat/long of the landing point although some would,
no doubt, choose to
quietly depart.

In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting
the landowner, I
have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem'
was a Nebraska
farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because,
I suspect, she just
wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town
all that often.

Bill Daniels

It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness.
As a protection before starting the season, know
in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected
to generate for several of the local crops, and keep
these figures quietly in mind.

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!