OK, what the hell has happened to the Brits?

Of course, for this to matter we have to assume that it is impossible (or at
least very difficult) to smuggle a weapon on board. I find myself
unwilling to make that assumption. If some kid could do it - and multiple
times at that - then why not a collection of savvy terrorists?


There are weapons, and then there are weapons. A half dozen guys with large
knives or small clubs is pretty formidable against a group of unarmed
passengers hampered by the width of the aisle on an airliner, but add one guard
(or passenger with a permit) and a handgun, and they are dead meat.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Andrew Gideon wrote:

Yes. They'd also need to identify the marshal amongst the passengers, as
you noted. However, relying upon these "secrets" is relying upon something
called "security through obscurity". It doesn't work in the long term.

It doesn't have to work in the long term. It has to work for the duration of
that flight.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

G.R. Patterson III wrote:



Andrew Gideon wrote:

Yes. They'd also need to identify the marshal amongst the passengers, as
you noted. However, relying upon these "secrets" is relying upon
something
called "security through obscurity". It doesn't work in the long term.

It doesn't have to work in the long term. It has to work for the duration
of that flight.

If there were no pattern to the marshals used, you'd be right. For example,
if we randomly selected a couple of police officers for each flight, the
chances of this information being abused would be relatively small.

If, however, there's a relatively small population of marshals, then even
the release of one identity can cause a problem.

But don't ignore the possibility that an entire class, or even the entire
population, will become known to some terrorist group. How many people
will have access to this information? How well vetted are they?

You'd think, for example, that we'd be sure about the people permitted to
speak to the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Wups.

Does nobody remember Robert Hanssen?

Further to keep in mind is that we're not speaking only of TSA staffers.
We've "marshals" from other nations handling security as well. More, some
of these nations aren't taking this program terribly seriously.

How well secured are the identities of those "marshals"?

- Andrew

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:44:02 GMT, John Roncallo
wrote:

All this article states is that people have some concerns about having
guns on board. These are legitimate concerns. It does not mean it will
or will not happen.

1) Having guns on board makes it unnecessary for terrorist to smuggle
guns on board. Now they just have to get the ones that were carried on
board by sky marshals.

How, pray tell? the air marshalls are undercover. Moreover, they're
trained to fight. Tough to identify the marshalls, let alone overpower
them.

2) A gun shot can rupture the pressurized cabin.

Impossible. The pressure systems on an airplane could literally
keep the cabin pressurized even if an entire window were to disappear.
A few bullet holes would make no difference in cabin pressure.

When you live in a society (British) where police officers dont carry
guns, and do so quit successfully. Having concerns is only natural.
Addressing all concerns and using a carefully thought out plan is highly
advisable.

John Roncallo

No, arming the pilots and putting air marshals on board is the ONLY
option. Anything else is catering to the terrorists.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:33:10 -0500, Eric Pinnell see my web site wrote:

Impossible. The pressure systems on an airplane could literally
keep the cabin pressurized even if an entire window were to disappear.
A few bullet holes would make no difference in cabin pressure.

OK, I buy that. Are the bullets also good enough to prevent cutting off the
wiring that runs back and forth along the cabin?

#m

--
harsh regulations in North Korea (read below link after reading the story):
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/04/open-mikulan.php
oooops ... sorry ... it happened in the USA, ya know: the land of the free.

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:27:48 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:

OK, I buy that. Are the bullets also good enough to prevent cutting off the
wiring that runs back and forth along the cabin?

#m

Aircraft have redundant flight control systems. It's highly
unlikely that controls could be severed. Besides, if you're worried
about a jetliner being shot out of the sky, equip the plane with a BRS
parachute.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

"Eric Pinnell" see my web site wrote in message ...

Aircraft have redundant flight control systems.

Unless you're on a DC-10 :-)

. Besides, if you're worried
about a jetliner being shot out of the sky, equip the plane with a BRS
parachute.

That's going to be one big parachute.

Wdtabor wrote:

Now the British airline pilots are considering refusingto fly if there is an
armed security guard on a flight, citing the danger of a gunshot in a
pressurized airliner.

Which is understandable.

But what puzzles me is, that the DHS now REQUIRES all planes to have
ARMED passengers (Air Marshals are just that: non-rev Pax.) on Board.

I wonder how difficult it might be to become an Air Marshal on Saudia,
Emirates, EgyptAir, SaudiArabAir, PIA, Biman Bangladesh, Royal Maroc,
Royal Jordanian or whatever other Airline from the middle-to-far-east
flies to the US.

Jens

--
I don't accept any emails right now. Usenet replys only.

"Jens Krueger" wrote in message
...

But what puzzles me is, that the DHS now REQUIRES all planes to have
ARMED passengers (Air Marshals are just that: non-rev Pax.) on Board.


Only those that wish to fly to the US.

Jens Krueger wrote:

But what puzzles me is, that the DHS now REQUIRES all planes to have
ARMED passengers (Air Marshals are just that: non-rev Pax.) on Board.

Not all, just a random sample.

I wonder how difficult it might be to become an Air Marshal on Saudia,
Emirates, EgyptAir, SaudiArabAir, PIA, Biman Bangladesh, Royal Maroc,
Royal Jordanian or whatever other Airline from the middle-to-far-east
flies to the US.

Good point. There was some discussion in the news recently to the effect that
AlQuaida is suspected of having managed to get some of their members positions
as airline pilots. It would probably take even less time to infiltrate the air
marshal program in Saudi Arabia, India, or the Philipines.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."