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Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 13th 13, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
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Posts: 573
Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

Several times this season (18 meter nationals for example) I experienced the following US Rules starting procedure...

1) 10 - 15 gliders thermalling together 500 feet above maximum start height.. Watching each other looking for the best time to start. This requires significant time on the "PDA" analyzing our positions within the cylinder, preparing our stop watch and watching our altimeter preparing for THE US RULES PROCEDURE. Gliders are all over the place, entering this gaggle, leaving, pulling spoilers and descending, etc........

2) THE US RULES STARTING PROCEDU Spoilers out, a pack of 10 - 15 gliders begin their decent below the max starting height, preparing to start my watch to time my 2 minute period required to be below the MSH. Speeds increase to well over 100 knots.

3) Descending below the MSH, I start my watch. Now I am forced to check it fairly often. Meanwhile 10 - 15 gliders are WOUND UP to 140 knots and banking 70 degrees, watching their watches for 2 minutes to pass, watching their PDA's (for their location in the cylinder) and desperately watching their altimeters to ensure they do not accidentally climb above MSH.

There is a fairly urgent need to start with the pack, so you concentrate heavily on not making a mistake with altitude and forcing another 2 min period of waiting watching the pack fly off....eyes are in the cockpit a large amount of this time........

4) While focused on instruments, 10-15 gliders are WOUND UP, flying a circle in close proximity, and as 2 min expires for some at different times, they level off and blast out on course, sometimes suddenly and causing near misses and surprise in other pilots.

This is a highly dangerous process that I think should deleted from the sport. This is far more dangerous than finish height, normal thermalling or cruising in a large pack.

In short, absurd. It was alot of fun, but from a rules perspective, head down flying in this manner is not safe. It is highly charged and invites disaster.

Nibble on that for awhile and let me know if you have experienced this procedure. Please be honest!

Sean
F2
  #2  
Old August 13th 13, 05:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Luke Szczepaniak
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Posts: 177
Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

Agree completely, I think I wrote something similar a year or two ago
when this nonsense was introduced. Call me crazy but I feel safer with
guys being below cloud base with their eyes out and head on a swivel
rather than with everyone looking at their watches and altimeters!

Luke Szczepaniak

On 08/13/2013 12:01 PM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Several times this season (18 meter nationals for example) I experienced the following US Rules starting procedure...

1) 10 - 15 gliders thermalling together 500 feet above maximum start height. Watching each other looking for the best time to start. This requires significant time on the "PDA" analyzing our positions within the cylinder, preparing our stop watch and watching our altimeter preparing for THE US RULES PROCEDURE. Gliders are all over the place, entering this gaggle, leaving, pulling spoilers and descending, etc........

2) THE US RULES STARTING PROCEDU Spoilers out, a pack of 10 - 15 gliders begin their decent below the max starting height, preparing to start my watch to time my 2 minute period required to be below the MSH. Speeds increase to well over 100 knots.

3) Descending below the MSH, I start my watch. Now I am forced to check it fairly often. Meanwhile 10 - 15 gliders are WOUND UP to 140 knots and banking 70 degrees, watching their watches for 2 minutes to pass, watching their PDA's (for their location in the cylinder) and desperately watching their altimeters to ensure they do not accidentally climb above MSH.

There is a fairly urgent need to start with the pack, so you concentrate heavily on not making a mistake with altitude and forcing another 2 min period of waiting watching the pack fly off....eyes are in the cockpit a large amount of this time........

4) While focused on instruments, 10-15 gliders are WOUND UP, flying a circle in close proximity, and as 2 min expires for some at different times, they level off and blast out on course, sometimes suddenly and causing near misses and surprise in other pilots.

This is a highly dangerous process that I think should deleted from the sport. This is far more dangerous than finish height, normal thermalling or cruising in a large pack.

In short, absurd. It was alot of fun, but from a rules perspective, head down flying in this manner is not safe. It is highly charged and invites disaster.

Nibble on that for awhile and let me know if you have experienced this procedure. Please be honest!

Sean
F2


  #3  
Old August 13th 13, 05:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

I believe when the MSH rule was first established, the max height was supposed to be set above the expected cloudbase or top of lift. That's according to the SN10 manual - I may be wrong. Anybody remember the reasoning for it?

But I agree that it has resulted in some interesting formation flying and high-speed zooming around the start cylinder.

OK in a small contest with guys you know. Pretty damn sporting at a large regional!

By the way, SeeYouMobile has a nice little automatic timer function that tells you how long you have been under the MSH and resets everytime you go above it without starting - sure beats dicking around with a stopwatch or wris****ch (what's that - haven't worn one of those in years!).

Kirk
66
  #4  
Old August 13th 13, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Luke Szczepaniak
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Posts: 177
Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

On 08/13/2013 12:20 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
I believe when the MSH rule was first established, the max height was supposed to be set above the expected cloudbase or top of lift. That's according to the SN10 manual - I may be wrong. Anybody remember the reasoning for it?

But I agree that it has resulted in some interesting formation flying and high-speed zooming around the start cylinder.

OK in a small contest with guys you know. Pretty damn sporting at a large regional!

By the way, SeeYouMobile has a nice little automatic timer function that tells you how long you have been under the MSH and resets everytime you go above it without starting - sure beats dicking around with a stopwatch or wris****ch (what's that - haven't worn one of those in years!).

Kirk
66



XCSoar has a timer too - it's still increased heads down time, maybe a
feature request for an audio alert when you are below start would help..
but the answer should never be more computer complexity, we need
better/simpler rules! Maybe the solution is to remove the time limit
all together, leave the height limit in place, the speed limit that
already exists should be enough to prevent red line zoomies... just a
thought.

Luke Szczepaniak
  #5  
Old August 13th 13, 05:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
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Posts: 484
Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 12:01:26 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Several times this season (18 meter nationals for example) I experienced the following US Rules starting procedure...



1) 10 - 15 gliders thermalling together 500 feet above maximum start height. Watching each other looking for the best time to start. This requires significant time on the "PDA" analyzing our positions within the cylinder, preparing our stop watch and watching our altimeter preparing for THE US RULES PROCEDURE. Gliders are all over the place, entering this gaggle, leaving, pulling spoilers and descending, etc........



2) THE US RULES STARTING PROCEDU Spoilers out, a pack of 10 - 15 gliders begin their decent below the max starting height, preparing to start my watch to time my 2 minute period required to be below the MSH. Speeds increase to well over 100 knots.



3) Descending below the MSH, I start my watch. Now I am forced to check it fairly often. Meanwhile 10 - 15 gliders are WOUND UP to 140 knots and banking 70 degrees, watching their watches for 2 minutes to pass, watching their PDA's (for their location in the cylinder) and desperately watching their altimeters to ensure they do not accidentally climb above MSH.



There is a fairly urgent need to start with the pack, so you concentrate heavily on not making a mistake with altitude and forcing another 2 min period of waiting watching the pack fly off....eyes are in the cockpit a large amount of this time........



4) While focused on instruments, 10-15 gliders are WOUND UP, flying a circle in close proximity, and as 2 min expires for some at different times, they level off and blast out on course, sometimes suddenly and causing near misses and surprise in other pilots.



This is a highly dangerous process that I think should deleted from the sport. This is far more dangerous than finish height, normal thermalling or cruising in a large pack.



In short, absurd. It was alot of fun, but from a rules perspective, head down flying in this manner is not safe. It is highly charged and invites disaster.



Nibble on that for awhile and let me know if you have experienced this procedure. Please be honest!



Sean

F2


You're doing it wrong.

T8
  #6  
Old August 13th 13, 06:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Luke Szczepaniak
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Posts: 177
Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

On 08/13/2013 12:59 PM, Evan Ludeman wrote:
You're doing it wrong.

T8



Evan, this is exactly the answer I got when I brought it up two years
ago. Regardless of how I fly the other guys in the start cylinder are
still doing this. It will continue to happen until we replace the rules
with something even more complex, in the name of "safety" of course.
All the meanwhile we'll be sitting down having dinner and a beer at 5:30
in the afternoon complaining that the sport is dying and that no one
wants to go to contests... here is a bit of a news flash, the sport is
not dying of natural causes.. we're killing it!

Rant over...
Luke Szczepaniak

  #7  
Old August 13th 13, 07:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:21:55 AM UTC-7, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
Evan, this is exactly the answer I got when I brought it up two years
ago. Regardless of how I fly the other guys in the start cylinder are
still doing this. It will continue to happen until we replace the rules
with something even more complex, in the name of "safety" of course.


A decade or so ago, when this rule first showed up, I added some code to my Palm (remember those?) navigation software that used tones to indicate when I entered the cylinder (from the top or side), warned me if my airspeed was getting too high or if I was about to exit cylinder before the 2 minutes were up, let me know when I could safely proceed from wherever I was to exit, and as I exited whether it was a good or bad start. There was nothing to look at except the other gliders and an occasional glance at the moving map so I could position myself for a reasonably optimal exit. I assume modern nav software written with US rules in mind does pretty much the same thing, but better. The only issue was that if there was one or two strong thermals in the cylinder, there would be a bunch of gliders climbing up, some rolling out and pulling spoilers to avoid going through the top, while others would keep on climbing through the top. I was never into flying with the pack, I imagine those that do will have interesting problems at start, no matter what the rules happen to be.

It seems to me that these "other" pilots just need to be strongly encouraged not to do it wrong...

Marc
  #8  
Old August 13th 13, 08:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 192
Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)

Having thought long and hard about this for many years, I'm curious what alternative you guys would prefer.

Unlimited altitude start? Then on blue days you absolutely have to sit with the gaggle for 20-30 minutes to get that last 500 feet. Or, everyone goes off into the clouds (demonstrated fact). It can also be remarkably unfair, when early takeoffs find thermal wave or it takes a long time to get to start altitude.

Limited altitude, no 2 minutes, a la IGC? Back to VNE dives. Or VNE dives after orbiting up in the clouds, a la IGC.

The current system has the advantage that you don't have to do any craziness for competitive reasons. If the max height is set sensibly low enough, as the rules suggest, then orbit above or away from everyone else. When it's time to start, return to the cylinder, climb up and go. Or better yet, stay below, well away from the nutty gaggle, and climb out through the top.

"Start anywhere" adds to the options as you get credit for distance flown and can more easily choose to avoid the big gaggle.

I grant many people still do some silly things, like orbit just below MSH in a big gaggle for half an hour. They don't have to, but they choose to and it's not great.

Still, let's hear a better alternative.

John Cochrane
  #10  
Old August 13th 13, 08:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Absurdity of US Rules (in fairness to FAI)



John, we already have a rule that handles the VNE dives...



10.8.7 While inside or within 2 miles of any Start Cylinder that has been designated for use by any competition class, pilots are


expected to avoid flight at indicated airspeeds greater than 115 mph and to pay particular attention to safe flight near circling sailplanes



Luke Szczepaniak


Do you really want to go back to a start with no 2 minute limit, so the competitively right thing to do is to get up to about 1000 feet high, then manage a high speed dive to the edge of the cylinder, while watching altitude, distance to start, airspeed, oh and of course for other gliders? Then, argue each day with the scorer about whether you have one fix in/under the cylinder, and whether you went more than 115 mph after comparing true/indicated, ground/airspeed?

 




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