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Washington DC airspace closing for good?



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 5th 05, 01:22 AM
Larry Dighera
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On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:57:46 GMT, Jose
wrote in : :

Why do you think [the DC ADIZ] was implemented?


To "do something".


You don't believe that the DC ADIZ was created as a 'friend or foe'
buffer zone so that innocent citizens aren't mistakenly shot down?

Creating the FRZ was doing something, but it posed certain lethal
hazards.


Ads
  #32  
Old August 5th 05, 01:40 AM
Jose
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Why do you think [the DC ADIZ] was implemented?

To "do something".

You don't believe that the DC ADIZ was created as a 'friend or foe'
buffer zone so that innocent citizens aren't mistakenly shot down?


No.

It has a nice plausible ring to it (btw, I do consider the FRZ part of
the ADIZ), but I don't think it was created for this purpose at all.

It does not accomplish this purpose. To do so it would have to be a
hundred miles across. Maybe more. At least, in a free country where we
don't shoot on sight (and so far, we have not shot on sight - how free
the country is is subject to debate).

It does not even remotely address the actual threat that was
demonstrated, nor the likely most damaging threats that could be
implemented. And inside of ten years, when terrorist operatives already
have ATP licenses, are air traffic controllers, and work the baggage
areas at major airports, it won't even matter.

In my opinion, it was designed to reassure the public that they should
be scared, but that the government will protect them.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #33  
Old August 5th 05, 01:52 AM
Terry Briggs
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I think I agree with Jose on this one.

If the powers that be were really serious about enforcing this area wouldn't
they just shoot people down? Since, to date, no one has been intercepted and
shot down it seems to me that those enforcers aren't really serious, or so
it seems.

Terry

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
Why do you think [the DC ADIZ] was implemented?

To "do something".

You don't believe that the DC ADIZ was created as a 'friend or foe'
buffer zone so that innocent citizens aren't mistakenly shot down?


No.

It has a nice plausible ring to it (btw, I do consider the FRZ part of the
ADIZ), but I don't think it was created for this purpose at all.

It does not accomplish this purpose. To do so it would have to be a
hundred miles across. Maybe more. At least, in a free country where we
don't shoot on sight (and so far, we have not shot on sight - how free
the country is is subject to debate).

It does not even remotely address the actual threat that was demonstrated,
nor the likely most damaging threats that could be implemented. And
inside of ten years, when terrorist operatives already have ATP licenses,
are air traffic controllers, and work the baggage areas at major airports,
it won't even matter.

In my opinion, it was designed to reassure the public that they should be
scared, but that the government will protect them.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.



  #34  
Old August 5th 05, 02:37 AM
Franklin Newton
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"Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message
...
George Patterson wrote:

On the other hand, what's 11 or 12 million dollars to an agency
4 billion in the hole.


Well eventually it adds up to real money...


Well, if it's really because of an increased terror threat, what it does
confirm is a complete failure on the part of the federal goverment and our
armed forces to protect and defend our way of life.When they finally get off
the dime and get the job done, all of the ADIZ, TFR and other associated
airspace stuff should vanish, until then these folks don't get a passing
grade.


  #35  
Old August 5th 05, 03:05 AM
Jose
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...complete failure on the part of the federal goverment and our
armed forces to protect and defend our way of life.
When they finally get off
the dime and get the job done, all of the
ADIZ, TFR and other associated
airspace stuff should vanish


We'll win the war on terror the same way we won the war on drugs.

Some things are just not possible... like finding a number that's
greater than six but less than four. The only way to really stop
terrorists is to find them and destroy them before they do their deeds,
but they hide pretty well while they are sleeping. To find them when
they are sleeping, we need to be able to investigate them pretty
thoroughly, before we know who they are. That means we need to
investigate everyone pretty thoroughly, and that pretty much undermines
the consititution and the freedoms it promises.

Your papers please.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #36  
Old August 5th 05, 03:11 AM
Larry Dighera
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On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:40:15 GMT, Jose
wrote in ::

Why do you think [the DC ADIZ] was implemented?

To "do something".

You don't believe that the DC ADIZ was created as a 'friend or foe'
buffer zone so that innocent citizens aren't mistakenly shot down?


No.

It has a nice plausible ring to it (btw, I do consider the FRZ part of
the ADIZ), but I don't think it was created for this purpose at all.

It does not accomplish this purpose.


I disagree. The DC ADIZ provides an opportunity for the military to
intercept flights that violate it before they might enter the FRZ
within which lethal force may be exercised. If the DC ADIZ (or
something similar) did not exist, there would be no opportunity to
determine how much of a threat those flights might be, and the
military would have no other option but to shoot them down. So while
the DC ADIZ does nothing, in my opinion, to make DC more secure, it
may provide some measure of mitigating erroneous shoot downs of fellow
airmen.

To do so it would have to be a hundred miles across. Maybe more.


The DC ADIZ, at it's present size, seems to have been effective so far
in preventing erroneous killing of wayward, non-treating flights. If
it did not exist, I could easily see unidentified/unauthorized flights
that penetrate the FRZ being downed by mistake.

At least, in a free country where we don't shoot on sight (and so far,
we have not shot on sight - how free the country is is subject to debate).


You mean like the CIA did in Peru:

http://www.november.org/razorwire/rzold/24/24002.html

CIA helps Peruvian jet shoot down Christian missionaries over
Amazon

The Peruvian anti-drug tactic of blowing suspected drug smuggling
planes out of the sky aroused little notice in the press or
elsewhere as long as the victims were presumed bad guys. Since
April 20th - when a Peruvian pilot guided to his target by
contract employees of the CIA in a plane leased from the Defense
Department attacked a civilian Cessna and killed a US missionary
and her infant child - the airwaves have been filled with mutual
finger-pointing and hand-wringing as Peru and the US each seek to
assign blame to the other. ...

Perhaps this incident made it obvious to our government, that it might
be prudent to attempt to ascertain if the aircraft in question is
'friend or foe' _before_ shooting it down, and inspired the DC ADIZ.

It does not even remotely address the actual threat that was
demonstrated, nor the likely most damaging threats that could be
implemented.


I agree; the DC ADIZ does nothing to make DC more secure. It's the
Stinger SAMs that are supposed to do that, apparently. But that's
another issue entirely, in my opinion.

And inside of ten years, when terrorist operatives already
have ATP licenses, are air traffic controllers, and work the baggage
areas at major airports, it won't even matter.


I don't think it matters now. If an unidentified aircraft is
intercepted in the DC ADIZ, and it appears to be hostile or capable of
carrying out a terrorist mission, when/if it penetrates the FRZ I'm
confident it will be shot down.

In my opinion, it was designed to reassure the public that they should
be scared, but that the government will protect them.

Jose


I think the DC ADIZ was imposed to prevent the TSA/CIA/... form making
a mistake, that could turn the nation against further unconstitutional
acts in the name of security against terrorist attacks.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe the FRZ is an effective measure
against all hypothetical attacks on DC. Further, I feel that our
government putting it's citizens in the cross hairs is repugnant in a
free society.

What would you propose in place of the DC ADIZ and FRZ?


  #37  
Old August 5th 05, 03:33 AM
Jose
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If the DC ADIZ (or
something similar) did not exist, there would be no opportunity to
determine how much of a threat those flights might be, and the
military would have no other option but to shoot them down.


Not true. The military would always have the option of not shooting
them down. The likelyhood that an aircraft flying around Washington DC
is a threat is miniscule. I am comfortable continuing with this
assumption. If historical fact is to be any guide, airliners should be
banned from DC, certainly from National Airport. Anyone wanting to fly
the airlines into DC should have to fly to Baltimore and catch a bus.

The DC ADIZ is protection against an imaginary monster in the closet.

The DC ADIZ, at it's present size, seems to have been effective so far
in preventing erroneous killing of wayward, non-treating flights. If
it did not exist, I could easily see unidentified/unauthorized flights
that penetrate the FRZ being downed by mistake.


What has been effective has been our reluctance to down aircraft that
are already =in= the FRZ. This appears to be ending.

You mean like the CIA did in Peru:


Yep. Exactly like that. But the CIA, like the Secret Service, does
whatever it wants. I'm not convinced it's really accountable to
anybody. And I know people personally who have witnessed and been
victim of other atrocities in this country (USA) at the hands of US
agencies like this one.

What would you propose in place of the DC ADIZ and FRZ?


Class E and class B airspace, the way it was in 2000.

The cat is out of the bag. Just as you cannot reasonably defend
yourself from being hit by gunfire while walking down the street, we
cannot reasonably defend ourselves from having our own high-energy
devices turned against us. There are too many of them, manned by too
few people, too low on the pay scale. You'd need armed guards around
every gas station's storage tank valve, escorts for every delivery truck
in the city, and a listening watch on the entire internet and cellphone
network.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #38  
Old August 5th 05, 04:30 AM
Larry Dighera
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Default

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:05:51 GMT, Jose
wrote in : :

We'll win the war on terror the same way we won the war on drugs.


Agreed. Given the fact that the Volstead Act sparked the worst crime
spree in the history of the nation, one would think that lawmakers
would take a clue about outlawing victimless "crime".

Some things are just not possible... like finding a number that's
greater than six but less than four.


Or like getting the John Larson's certified before they take to the
air.

The only way to really stop
terrorists is to find them and destroy them before they do their deeds,
but they hide pretty well while they are sleeping. To find them when
they are sleeping, we need to be able to investigate them pretty
thoroughly, before we know who they are. That means we need to
investigate everyone pretty thoroughly, and that pretty much undermines
the consititution and the freedoms it promises.


There is another way to find Islamic terrorists. If those Muslims who
are aware of terrorists in their midst were to inform on them, it
would not only help identify them, but establish Muslim immigrants as
sincerely attempting to do their part. They are, after all, in the
best position to identify Islamic terrorists. Perhaps a bounty, al la
the GOP's whistle blower offer on Chicago's mayor, might help too.
Until that begins to occur, they're all suspects.


  #39  
Old August 5th 05, 04:59 AM
Jose
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There is another way to find Islamic terrorists.

Islamic terrorists aren't the problem.

Terrorists are the problem.

There are Christian terrorists too. It just so happens that the Islamic
ones are the special of the day, but terrorism comes in all guises, and
it will get much worse in this country because it works so well. All we
need are enemies.

It is not even sufficient to try to stop =people=, because it is =ideas=
that are really dangerous, and they can slip into this country
unimpeded, where they are picked up by passport-carrying Americans. It
is the evil ideas that must be stopped. But alas, there's something in
the constitution about that.

If those Muslims who are aware of terrorists
in their midst were to inform on them...


Didn't communist China do this some years back? This kind of thing can
be useful if it is appropriately contained, but it's hard to say where
it should stop. Or rather, it's easy to say, but hard to agree, and I
don't trust this administration to agree with me.

Clearly we should encourage informants to out terrorists, drug kingpins,
religious extremists, welfare abusers, deadbeat dads, athiests,
jaywalkers, gays, and people who fly little airplanes "for fun". If
you're doing nothing wrong, you shouldn't be afraid.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #40  
Old August 5th 05, 05:22 AM
Dave Stadt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
Why do you think [the DC ADIZ] was implemented?

To "do something".

You don't believe that the DC ADIZ was created as a 'friend or foe'
buffer zone so that innocent citizens aren't mistakenly shot down?


No.

It has a nice plausible ring to it (btw, I do consider the FRZ part of
the ADIZ), but I don't think it was created for this purpose at all.

It does not accomplish this purpose. To do so it would have to be a
hundred miles across. Maybe more. At least, in a free country where we
don't shoot on sight (and so far, we have not shot on sight - how free
the country is is subject to debate).

It does not even remotely address the actual threat that was
demonstrated, nor the likely most damaging threats that could be
implemented. And inside of ten years, when terrorist operatives already
have ATP licenses, are air traffic controllers, and work the baggage
areas at major airports, it won't even matter.

In my opinion, it was designed to reassure the public that they should
be scared, but that the government will protect them.


It appears the government is protecting itself and could care less about the
public.



 




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