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  #101  
Old June 12th 04, 08:10 AM
Denyav
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Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as
being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable.


"Courtesy" laws are usually rubber stamped by presidents,not refused for
forever.


The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl Harbour
issue. I just like poking fun at mad people.


"Standardized Minds" could not even qualify as "mad people".

Cheers.


  #102  
Old June 12th 04, 08:20 AM
Geoffrey Sinclair
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Denyav wrote in message ...

Firstly part of my deleted text,

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.


Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of Kimmel:


There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

It is really quite simple, look below and know people are fitting the
evidence after the event. There was no "attack the US" message,
let alone attack a specific location, the 14 part message was not a
declaration of war, and the British and Dutch did not even receive
that message, let alone a declaration of war.

1)"Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented
that Adm.Kimmel and Lt.Gen.Short were not provided neccesary and critical
intelligence that was available, that was foretold of war with Japan,that
warned of imminent attack,and that would have alerted them to prepare for the
attack,including such essential communiques as the Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot
message of Sep.24,1941 and the message sent from IJ Foreign ministry to
Japanase Ambassador in US from Dec 6 to 7 1941,known as fourteen part message".


Congratulations on noting that after the event people could fit the pre
attack messages into the proven chain of events.

Now go back and note the key part of the 14 part message was about
having no point in further negotiations, not a declaration of war. The
timing of the note was an important factor, it fitted with first light in the
Midway/Guam area, and early morning in the Philippines.

Note by the way the grid message, the one that wanted the location as
well as the number of ships in harbour, was named bomb plot after the
attack, not before. In any case a bomb plot is the diagram of the fall
of the bombs, an after the attack report.

Simply put the US "knew" it could not immediately go to war to defend
European colonies in Asia. The Japanese military government "knew"
the best time for the US to declare war was at the start of fighting. The
Japanese had to make the decision. There were no resources needed
by the Japanese from the Philippines.

2)"On July 1997 Adm.Richardson USN (Ret) responded to Dorn report with his own
study which confirmed the findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and and Army
Pearl Harbor Board of Investigations and established ,among other facts,that
the war effert in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive distrubution policy,and
the degree to which the commanders of US forces in Hawai were not alerted
about impending attack was directly attributable to the witholding of
intelligence from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short".


Congratulations in noting the US discovered it had short changed its
field commanders. That is completely separate to the US knowing
when and where attacks would occur, plus there is still the problem of
whether the commanders would do anything. The USN had known
for years the IJN warplan was to await the USN in the eastern
Pacific, not come for the USN.

I see the claims about what investigations did what have been deleted,
like all the other claims, once the documents are produced the claims
have to be deleted.

Deleted text,

"Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel.
The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations
are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges."

1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short
2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
contributors to the defeat list.)
6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
no report published.
7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.

In in Nr.4 of this list he was allowed to defend himself,Court exhonorated
him,BUT findings were kept secret.period.


This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage.

Alternatively Hollywood movies said "

aid to be fiction can be taken as the
truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
of the US military?


"It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment
product is the source of truth."

Dont underestimate Holywood,Its nations premier quasi-governmental PSYOP
organization.


This is good, presumably the "Pearl Harbor" movie talk of code
breaking is therefore psyops and needs to be ignored. Then again
given the movie is the advanced "proof" of code breaking maybe not.

Hollywood promotes US disinformation, except when the claim is
liked, then it is the truth, spoken by a fictional character in a movie
claimed to be fictional is no barrier. Just ignore the actual history.

For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.


On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


  #103  
Old June 12th 04, 09:11 AM
Denyav
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For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.


On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.

Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .




There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.


I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?


I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"


Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.
  #104  
Old June 12th 04, 11:13 AM
L'acrobat
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
In which alternate reality


1)Ft.Sumter
2)USS Maine
3)Pearl Harbor
4)9/11

This kind of operations should be a thing of the past,but you can not

prevent
the recurrence of such events by covering them up.



Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few
more times.


  #105  
Old June 12th 04, 01:06 PM
Alistair Gunn
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Denyav twisted the electrons to say:
2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the
nation not enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic
politics)

A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements =
The Pearl Harbor trap


So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only
that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving",
why not warn Pearl Harbour? After all, if you're planning on joining a
war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of
men and equipment on day 1!

No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get
them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a
decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead.
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
  #106  
Old June 12th 04, 04:57 PM
Denyav
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1)Ft.Sumter
2)USS Maine
3)Pearl Harbor
4)9/11


Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few
more times.


It establishes the existence of a pattern or govenment culture.

Its always easier to get an Arson suspect with prior Arson convictions
convicted than an Arson suspect without any prior convictions.

  #107  
Old June 12th 04, 05:27 PM
Denyav
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So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only
that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving",
why not warn Pearl Harbour?


Good Question,but I think Kimmel gave a very clear answer to this question
during interview in 1958.

After all, if you're planning on joining a
war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of
men and equipment on day 1!


Amounts of men and equipment lost in Pearl Harbor is very insignificant in
comparison with manpower and production resources of US,as the later
developments in war proved.

No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get
them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a
decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead.


Pearl Harbors shortcomings were well known,in fact during pre-attack meetings
Kimmel always maintained that only viable defense would be the keeping the
fleet in open sea and his views shared by everybody.
  #109  
Old June 12th 04, 09:16 PM
B2431
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From: (Denyav)
snip

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.



Oh, now I understand. You repeat the same thing many times and it becomes fact.
How stupid of me to not notice sooner.

I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter was
a nice target.
http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalO...rder_intro.htm

Wow, I think you are right. The Navy blew up their own boat in Havana Harbour
in 1898 because the Spanish wouldn't cooperate and do it for them.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm

I guess this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the Kimmel's interviews were the
truth. [editor's note: this is getting deep] It would never occur to me that
Kimmel was trying to simply improve his image in the history books.

Amazing how the trend you present proves beyond any question Bush talked
Clinton into not collecting Bin Ladin when he had a chance so tha Bush could
have his war. [editor's note: forget saving your shoes, save your watch]

Now, denyev, you have proved your point [editor's note: the shovel broke] when
and where will the next trumped up attack occur?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

  #110  
Old June 13th 04, 12:25 AM
L'acrobat
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as
being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable.


"Courtesy" laws are usually rubber stamped by presidents,not refused for
forever.


Unless of course the President sees that awarding such a "courtesy" would
have wider implications and encourage conspirowhackos like yourself.



The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl

Harbour
issue. I just like poking fun at mad people.


"Standardized Minds" could not even qualify as "mad people".


Poor Denyav, no proof, no hope and no sanity.


 




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