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F-14 vs. F-15 accel.



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 21st 04, 11:39 PM
Frijoles
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"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was not
so super when it was just man y mano).


Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.

R / John


No, it humbled young pilots who mistook the horse they rode for "good at
1v1."


  #42  
Old December 22nd 04, 01:48 PM
John Carrier
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Humbled a few old and not-so-bold pilots as well. Even the A-4F (P-8 vice
P-408) accomplished that. That's first hand experience from both sides of
the equation.

R / John

"Frijoles" wrote in message
.net...

"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was
not so super when it was just man y mano).


Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.

R / John


No, it humbled young pilots who mistook the horse they rode for "good at
1v1."




  #43  
Old December 22nd 04, 04:16 PM
B.C. Mallam
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This goes a ways back but in the middle 60's I was at NAS Whiting Field as a
maint. Test pilot flying the T-28. Eglan AFB was next to out training area
on the East side.
The Force had a bombing range near the border and the F-100's would
sometimes stray into our area. It was great sport to cruise the border and
get'em when they crossed the line. They couldn't turn with the T-28 but they
would try, if they went into burner we claimed a kill. Granted they were out
of their element at 8000' but you have to be careful where you go.

  #44  
Old December 22nd 04, 04:44 PM
Pechs1
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Ed- Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.

IMHO.


I mention again-"A hamburger in another package is still a hamburger'

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #45  
Old December 22nd 04, 04:48 PM
Pechs1
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John- That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was
not
so super when it was just man y mano).


Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1. BRBR

I agree-Don't know who said the F+ was so 'super' but it certainly was. Flaps
at 1/2, slats out, the ability to point and harass in the 100 kt range was
impressive.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #46  
Old December 22nd 04, 04:51 PM
Pechs1
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Jeb- I talked to an engineer from the Raptor program (anyone see the rolling
AIM-9 launch videos? He set those shots up), and he said that they'd
thrown several different types up against it and it was eating everyone
alive. Didn't really elucidate much, but we had been talking agility
so you can infer what you wish. BRBR

I say-a big perhaps. The 'engineers' from the Grumman Iron works said the same
things about the F-14A, even with the ****poor engines, even in spite of taking
a ramp full of people to get the thing off the ground, in spite of losing a few
to engine snuff departures/spins.

Plus, I wonder how often the Raptor will be deployed in a shooting war, during
the day, multibogey. Pretty expensive jet to be 'surprised' by a Chinese Mig-21
variant.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
  #48  
Old December 22nd 04, 06:41 PM
Frijoles
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My point (also based on experience) is that once you went to the visual
arena mano y mano, the occupant was usually the determining factor in the
outcome. However, that was often translated as "wow, that A-4 with the big
motor is a tough...". Which, of course was part of the intent behind
dissimilar training...the differences that seem so glaring while comparing
EM diagrams aren't always apparent in the air when the adversary aircraft
was flown by professional bogeys.

Once had some of the youngsters play with the A-4s of a prominent, well
equipped and well trained nation outside the US. In side by side
performance comparisons, the ability of the A-4 to point wasn't even close
to later generation aircraft. What was comparable however, was accel from
250 to roughly 420 and ability to sustain in the 230-280 range.

I never lost a 1v1 to an A-4 -- ever. Can't say the same about some others.

"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
Humbled a few old and not-so-bold pilots as well. Even the A-4F (P-8 vice
P-408) accomplished that. That's first hand experience from both sides of
the equation.

R / John

"Frijoles" wrote in message
.net...

"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was
not so super when it was just man y mano).

Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.

R / John


No, it humbled young pilots who mistook the horse they rode for "good at
1v1."






  #49  
Old December 22nd 04, 07:00 PM
Mike Kanze
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Pechs,

Plus, I wonder how often the Raptor will be deployed in a shooting war,
during the day, multibogey. Pretty expensive jet to be 'surprised' by a
Chinese Mig-21 variant.


This was the same type of groupthink that prevailed at the very end of the
VN war, with regard to sending the then-very new EA-6B into the North with
the strike package. Of course some of the reticence was due to the fear of
components falling into Soviety hands, but one theme that always came out
was, "Those jamming pods are $1 million a toss!" (1972 US$).

--
Mike Kanze

"Christmas is just plain weird. What other time of year do you sit in front
of a dead tree in the living room and eat candy out of your socks?"

- Maxine


"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
Jeb- I talked to an engineer from the Raptor program (anyone see the
rolling
AIM-9 launch videos? He set those shots up), and he said that they'd
thrown several different types up against it and it was eating everyone
alive. Didn't really elucidate much, but we had been talking agility
so you can infer what you wish. BRBR

I say-a big perhaps. The 'engineers' from the Grumman Iron works said the
same
things about the F-14A, even with the ****poor engines, even in spite of
taking
a ramp full of people to get the thing off the ground, in spite of losing
a few
to engine snuff departures/spins.

Plus, I wonder how often the Raptor will be deployed in a shooting war,
during
the day, multibogey. Pretty expensive jet to be 'surprised' by a Chinese
Mig-21
variant.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer



  #50  
Old December 22nd 04, 09:32 PM
John Carrier
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SNIP

I never lost a 1v1 to an A-4 -- ever. Can't say the same about some
others.


I always approach a "Never" statement from a fellow fighter pilot with a
certain level of skepticism. OTOH, I did a College Dart in an F-4 and
"never" got shot by an F-106 in ten sorties (TACTS data). But then again,
there was this ONE guy .... (and then there were the A-4's the USAF invited
to augment our 4 Phantoms ... they switched sides on day two much to our
chagrin).

Re the A-4. I was adversary in VF-126 a while back. There was a time I
went 1V2 against a couple RAG instructors from 124 (RIO ACM training hop)
who thoroughly humbled me in my two-seater P-6 equipped bogey. Entered
three engagements with both fighters in sight and the best start I could
manage. Dead three times. They complained I didn't challenge them enough.
Well, they were doing things the right way and perhaps I had an off day
(IIRC Eric Hartmann, a fighter driver of some repute had at least nine off
days). Another time, I got 3 gun shots + an Atoll kill in two engagements
(single seat A-4F) ... that's two dead sections and the bad guy lives to
fight another day. On a given day, I felt pretty darned competitive in the
A-4 against any and all opposition.

I've had similar experiences (sometimes favorable, sometimes not) in three
different aircraft types when opposed by the A-4. The A-4's capabilities
were regularly maximized by Top Gun, VF-126 and VF-43 (the adversaries I
faced in my career), you didn't win unless you did everything exactly right.

Its undeniably true the A-4 could be regularly beaten by the application of
skill and patience in the 1v1 arena. Run out of one or the other a bit
early, and the table was turned. That unfortunate circumstance happened
often. Most folks had it happen to them once or twice in the formative
process. I'm much impressed it never happened to you.

R / John


 




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