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FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for out ofcurrency power pilots



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 28th 16, 12:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for out ofcurrency power pilots

The FAA is sticking to its guns in holding that a rated power pilot who is out of currency in his power rating cannot solo in a glider when the transition pilot is not current (no current flight review) in his other rating. The most recent legal opinion is dated today, April 27, and addressed to Chris Bennett of the Southern California Soaring Academy, who requested the clarification. I have a copy of the legal opinion, but can't figure out how to attach it to this post. Send me an email if you want a copy.

The FAA realizes their ruling makes no logical sense, but they feel the ruling is compelled by the language of the FAR. They have suggested to the rule making branch of the FAA that the FAR be amended but that won't happen overnight.

In the meantime, I understand that there may be a work-a-round in the form of the FAA Wings program if the power pilot doesn't want to either get current or surrender his power rating and get a new student certificate. I'm not an expert on it, but I think that it is possible for a rated pilot to do an FAA Wings program in lieu of a flight review with an instructor. Worth checking out. I think I saw something from Cindy Brickner or someone else on the topic a few months ago when this issue first raised its ugly head.

Not sure what there is for SSA to do at this point other than to disseminate the info and advise all clubs, operators and instructors to follow the ruling. I'm sure SSA's volunteer liaisons with the FAA will encourage a prompt amendment to the FARs, but other than that I think we just have to suck it up and comply.

Best,

Phil Umphres,
SSA Treasurer
  #2  
Old April 28th 16, 03:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill T
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 4:01:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The FAA is sticking to its guns in holding that a rated power pilot who is out of currency in his power rating cannot solo in a glider when the transition pilot is not current (no current flight review) in his other rating. The most recent legal opinion is dated today, April 27, and addressed to Chris Bennett of the Southern California Soaring Academy, who requested the clarification. I have a copy of the legal opinion, but can't figure out how to attach it to this post. Send me an email if you want a copy.

The FAA realizes their ruling makes no logical sense, but they feel the ruling is compelled by the language of the FAR. They have suggested to the rule making branch of the FAA that the FAR be amended but that won't happen overnight.

In the meantime, I understand that there may be a work-a-round in the form of the FAA Wings program if the power pilot doesn't want to either get current or surrender his power rating and get a new student certificate. I'm not an expert on it, but I think that it is possible for a rated pilot to do an FAA Wings program in lieu of a flight review with an instructor. Worth checking out. I think I saw something from Cindy Brickner or someone else on the topic a few months ago when this issue first raised its ugly head.

Not sure what there is for SSA to do at this point other than to disseminate the info and advise all clubs, operators and instructors to follow the ruling. I'm sure SSA's volunteer liaisons with the FAA will encourage a prompt amendment to the FARs, but other than that I think we just have to suck it up and comply.

Best,

Phil Umphres,
SSA Treasurer


AC 61-91J outlines the requirements of the WINGS program.
Yes the WINGS program does work for Flight Review Credit.

To complete the Wings Program for the Flight Review Credit even at the Basic Level you must complete 3 academic modules and 3 FLIGHT MODULES with an instructor within the last 12 months. Then you have Flight Review Credit for 24 months starting with the completion date of your first event.

So you still need to fly, with an instructor that can certify in the WINGS online program, that the flight modules have been completed and proficient to Practical Test Standards for the rating held.

There is no easy "work around".

There has been a lot of comments on Rec.Aviation.Soaring about getting a "Sport Pilot Glider" rating with two CFI sign off on an FAA form 8710-11.

Yes you can do that at the Sport Pilot level, but the Sport Pilot would still be an "add-on" rating, and it still requires 2 hours of solo and 5 solo flights, which you cannot do as an "add-on" without a current flight review..

Bill Tisdale
LVVSA, CFI-G
FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) Lead
  #3  
Old April 28th 16, 04:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
N97MT
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots


So you still need to fly, with an instructor that can certify in the WINGS online program, that the flight modules have been completed and proficient to Practical Test Standards for the rating held.


Bill, can you please refer me to which regulation(s) and/or guidance(s) require the pilot to be currently rated in a Glider if they want to complete the Wings Phase in a Glider? 61.56(e) does not specify a requirement to hold any previous rating.

AC 61.91J also does not specify that the pilot must hold a particular category/class rating. Only that they hold an FAA Pilot Certificate and hold any required Medical current. Even Student Pilot certificate holders qualify for the program. By definition Student Pilots are not yet rated.

The FAASafety.gov website also does not specifically state that the pilot must be currently rated in any specific category. It seems to imply that completing a Wings Phase can be a part of a future rating.

Yes the add-on student still would need to fly with a CFI-G. I would propose completing the Wings Phase as a part of the add-on rating training before the sign off for solo. The Student will most certainly be ready for solo by that time.

Am I missing something?


  #4  
Old April 28th 16, 04:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill T
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

Wings credit for a flight review. You can't get a "flight review" in an aircraft you are not rated in.
If you could, then a non glider rated pilot could get his flight review 61.56 sign off in a glider and not have to do it the long "Wings" way.
Wings requires 3 ground training modules and 3 hrs of flying.
A "simple" flight review is 1hr ground and 1hr in the air.

61.56(c)(1) says it is in an aircraft you are rated in.

BillT
  #5  
Old April 28th 16, 05:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
N97MT
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots


61.56(c)(1) says it is in an aircraft you are rated in.


Bill, the entire 61.56(c) is excepted by 61.56(e). I see the text before 61.56(c)(1) which reads:

"(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section,"...etc.

61.56(e) refers back to (c) but only in reference to the 24 month period. 61.56(e) specifically negates any requirement for any flight review:

"(e) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored pilot proficiency award program need not accomplish the flight review required by this section."

There is no requirement for a flight review in this case, let alone with any rating. At least as it is stated in 61.56.


  #6  
Old April 28th 16, 05:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill T
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

Completing the flight portion of a wings program requires 3 modules, completing maneuvers to PTS standards.
Completing a wings program for flight review credit allows you to act as PIC in aircraft you are rated.

"Pilots with multiple ratings select the category and class of aircraft in which they wish to recieve training and demonstrate their flight proficiency."
AC 61-91J para 5.c.3

Students can participate in Wings programs, but they do not require a FR, so credits are not applied to FR printed by faasaftey.gov web site.

BillT
  #7  
Old April 28th 16, 06:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
N97MT
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

Completing a wings program for flight review credit allows you to act as PIC in aircraft you are rated.

"Pilots with multiple ratings select the category and class of aircraft in which they wish to recieve training and demonstrate their flight proficiency."
AC 61-91J para 5.c.3


Completing a Wings Program in lieu of a flight review allows you to act as PIC in aircraft you are rated. It completed eliminates any flight review requirement. The Wings Program resets the flight review date when the Wings Phase is completed.

I don't know Bill. I read that AC 61-91J paragraph too but I cannot see that it says I have to have any specific rating to select. It says "in which they wish" no "in which they are rated".

I just now signed up to FAASafety.gov for the first time. In my profile it noted my Private ASEL, but not my Commercial Glider nor Flight Instructor.

So I changed my profile to Private ASES (Seaplane) which I do not have. It then presented me with modules to complete including 3 flight modules for Seaplane. At least, before starting, the Wings Program is not preventing me from completing the Basic Wings Phase at this point. In a Seaplane. For which I am not rated.

So, after I (hypothetically) complete these, when, where and by whom am I stopped from getting credit for completing a Basic Wings Phase in the Seaplane (and by definition, become Flight Review current)?
  #8  
Old April 28th 16, 12:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

Bill T - I disagree with your interpretation as to the hourly requirements to obtain Sport Pilot priveledges to operate a different catagory or class

Please go to the link and read the guidance to flight instructors.

Here is my reference as to why I think this is legal

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...ency_check.pdf

Specifically -


III. RECORD OF PILOT TIME.
There is no minimum pilot experience required by for the proficiency check. Enter only the pilot time that is acquired in an N-numbered aircraft. DO NOT ENTER TIME THAT IS ACQUIRED IN AN ULTRA LIGHT VEHICLE. If decimal points are used, be sure they are legible. You should fill in the blocks that apply and ignore the blocks that do no
  #9  
Old April 28th 16, 12:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Terry Pitts
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

Light sport add-on to an existing certificate has no requirement for solo flight time. Train to proficiency. Check proficiency. 8710-11 in the mail. Logbook entry. Assuming flight review currency, the LS-G pilot can now take a passenger up without ever having flown a glider solo.
  #10  
Old April 28th 16, 03:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
N97MT
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Default FAA sticks to its guns on not allowing solo glider flight for outof currency power pilots

I think it is best to summarize possible avenues for Flight Review alternatives here and what has been proposed so far. These should be further questioned through local DPEs and FSDOs, in my opinion. Of course, the questions could also be posed for legal interpretations by the FAA lawyers.

The scenario is that a Sport, Private, Commercial, or ATP pilot certificate holder is out of Flight Review currency in a Category other than Glider. A Recreational certificate does not include a Glider Category. The pilot is not rated in a Glider. He can not or will not complete a Flight Review in an aircraft for which he is rated. Thus he can not act as PIC, and fly solo or with passengers, in a Glider, because at a minimum he is not Flight Review current.

Two alternatives discussed so far:

(1) Complete a Phase of the Wings Program in the Glider. It seems you do not need to be rated in a Glider to do this path. You could then at least solo in the Glider and continue training for the add-on.

(2) Complete a Sport Pilot Proficiency Check for the Sport Pilot Glider add on. It seems there is no hourly training or solo requirements to do this path. Then perform a Flight Review in the Glider since you are now rated in the Glider. You could then start down the training path (ie solo glider flights and additional training) to upgrade your Glider rating to the higher level pilot certificate if you have one.

On the other hand, the above assumptions may not pan out and I am not as experienced as Bill to claim with certainty otherwise. And, the proposed alternatives may involve more time and expense than doing the Flight Review in the first place, as Bill has mentioned.

So again, we should get confirmation from the local DPEs, FSDOs and FAA legal interpretations before starting down the path of any alternatives.
 




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