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#31
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Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: "Marty from Florida" marty@-x-x-x- remove -x-x- worth.net writes: [...] I know as a given fact that I will not get hurt in a general aviation aircraft that I'm flying during daylight hours. It's just a fact that comes with a great respect for the unexpected (I have a healthy fear of what I don't know). [..] I hate to say this, but all that respect and pre-flight attention is just not a guarantee that you won't be hurt. There are unfortunately many ways to get hurt in an airplane, some foreseeable, some preventable, and some neither. I don't want to scare you by dreaming up scenario after scenario, but rest assured that they exist. I've definitely gotta agree with that one. If you know it is a fact that you won't be hurt in an aircraft that you're flying day VFR, then, with all due respect, you are deluding yourself. Of course, you probably won't be convinced of that until it actually happens (been there, done that, still have the blood soaked T-shirt). A great respect for the unexpected will not guarantee that the unexpected will not happen. Not by a long shot. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#32
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Mark Hansen wrote: I guess everyone will have their own personal safety margins, but if I was unable to come up with a way to safely make the flight, I would not fly. Perhaps this is simply due to my lack of experience. I'm not sure what that means. Every flight is an exercise in risk assesment. Since there are no guarantees that you will ever come up with a way to "safely make a flight", you'd have to stay on the ground. The trick is to slant the odds in your favor as much as possible. Individuals vary in their risk tolerance, so that is a personal decision. Some people will not fly over any terrain that would not permit an emergency landing at any time. That's fine for them, but would seriously limit the utility of an aircraft for most pilots, if adhered to religiously. In real life, we make trade-offs. A certain amount of risk, for a certain amount of reward. Where those two balance are an exercise for the individual. I rountinely fly my single engine plane in the bottoms of deep canyons in very mountainous terrain. I know that there are a lot of places where an engine failure will have a good chance of killing me. I do everything I can to make sure that I've minimized the risk as much as possible, but the bottom line is that I'm trading a little safety in order to enjoy the unique pleasure of flying the backcountry. Lest you think I'm some kind of daredevil, there are several hundreds of other pilots that have made similar choices. I'll be the first one to say that, although I enjoy it immensly, it's not for everybody. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#33
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On Wed, 04 May 2005 12:13:10 -0500, Montblack wrote:
I was surprised that the OP turned around to make an airport he didn't think he could make - if the rough running engine quit. I mean ....GATORS!!! Have to admit that was my impression too. He had a plan that would work, and traded it (at ATC's suggestion) for one he hoped would work - if all went well, and the engine didn't get any worse. Don't know that I would have done the same thing. |
#34
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George Patterson wrote: Marty from Florida wrote: I didn't touch the mags for concern I'd kill the engine. I agree with you completely. Switching to one mag would help only in a situation in which a mag has jumped time. Your description of the symptoms doesn't match what happens when a mag's mistimed (backfiring usually comes into the picture in this case). I would not have touched the ignition switch. I've had instances of mag failure where switching to one improved the situation quite a bit. One was a bad timing gear that did include the backfiring, but another was a shorting distributer block that made the engine extremely rough and caused a power loss. In that case, I switched to the good mag and had a much less worriesome ride home. I guess I don't completely understand your (or Marty's) reluctance to at least check the mags in flight. Even at best glide, the engine is not going to come to a stop because you grounded a mag. If it gets worse, you just switch back, then try the other one. At some point, you decide which combo (left, right, or both) works best and you leave it there. Maybe there is something I haven't considered. If so, I would welcome enlightenment. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#35
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#36
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You should show this story in RAS. I think it is a good story for student
pilots to hear. Toks Desalu PP-ASEL "Dyin' to soar" "Marty from Sunny Florida" wrote in message ... Hello everyone. The end of my story is this; We landed safely in the middle of the Florida Everglades and didn't get a single Alligator bite. Here's what happened; On Friday, April 29th, we took our Cessna 152 from Lantana, Florida to the center of the State for gas and start our trek south to Key West. The total journey is a little over 2 hours. Forty five minutes after filling with gas in Pahokee, we were just below Alligator Alley (highway 75). Our engine hiccupped. A few minutes later, it hiccupped again, this time losing a couple of hundred RPM. We were at 6,800 feet, strait and level flight running at 75% power (about 2350 RPM). The mixture had been leaned back about 30 minutes earlier, and none of the engine instruments had changed from the time we made our cruise altitude. As the hiccups got closer together engine power dropped off significantly, grabbing our total attention. My first move was pulling up on the yoke to maintain altitude. I trimmed to our plane's best glide of 60 kts When the sputtering became a constant rough drone, the engine still held some power, and we could see nothing but marsh. I though about the choice between ditching in green or brown muck, not sure where the biggest alligators live. There was absolutely no solid ground as far as the eye could see. Solemnly, I rolled the 'standby' frequency to 121.5 acknowledging the severity of our predicament. Acting on the premise that the engine could quit at any moment and our best option was behind us on highway I75, I started a very gentle 180 degree turn. Oil pressure was in the green. Oil temp was in the green. Mags were on BOTH. The fuel showed close to full (I had at least 18 gallons useable). My only immediate change was to push the mixture to full rich, which had no effect. When I touched the throttle to add power, the RPM dropped. Gently, I returned the throttle and the power evened out. The sky was clear, and when I got my pre-flight briefing, the temp was 26 and dew point 16. It was unseasonably cool and very dry for Florida. At altitude, I knew the air had almost no moisture, but on the way up, we did have a typical hazy layer. My next move was carb heat, even though there was absolutely no visible moisture. It did smooth out the roughness slightly, but did nothing for the power loss. The engine was dying, and the math was simple. Sink at 500 fpt, 6,800 feet gives me about 13 minutes and at 60 kts, I'd get about 15 statute miles. I knew I could make the highway without an engine. I've personally had experience looking for downed aircraft in the Florida swamp, and know how difficult it is to spot a small plane. We needed to let someone know our position and situation. We had the skill to find the closest airport but every moment was precious. ATC could save valuable minutes and that might make the difference. With this in mind, I hit the radio's flip-flop button and announced our tail number on the emergency frequency. The Controller was a true professional. He asked me a few questions and instructed me to "ident" before assigning a squawk code. The radio reception was not clear, which generated a stream of "say agains". This, of course added to the general stress of the situation. Efficiently, he ascertained our position and vectored me to the Dade-Collier airport, which is in the middle of nowhere. Ironically, so were we! The strip was 17 miles to our southwest, which is farther than a dead engine would take me. We had been heading due north to a safe landing point on I75 when ATC advised us to turn our backs on the hwy and return south. In my heart, we turned away from solid ground to face only swamp again. I decided to trust fate and the ATC controller as I asked the alligators to gift me the extra minutes of engine power needed to make the airport. Trimmed back to slow flight, we managed to barely maintain altitude. We arrived at the 10,500 foot runway with 3,200 feet of altitude and 120 kts of air speed. I figure I could have made 4 complete turns around the pattern and still land hot. I have never been so relieved in my entire life. On the ground, we taxied to an area near two other planes. Relieved and curious I did a runup and the engine gave a text book performance. Our cell phones didn't work so we called the FBO on the radio. We were invited into the small building nearby where there was a phone. There we learned that the other two planes had landed the day before with similar symptoms. I phoned my mechanic and relayed the story. He gave me some great advice and a definite suggestion about what caused the problem. We returned to the plane to follow my mechanics instructions. Another mechanic, who had come to pick up one of the other downed planes kindly offered to look at my engine. He pulled the cowl open, checked the cables on the throttle, carb heat and mixture. He sat in the 152 with me while I did a regular and then full-power run up. The engine showed great response to throttle, the mixture choked it and the carb heat performed as advertised. This qualified mechanic was planning to fly out in a plane that landed in the same condition as ours. They offered us a ride if we were not comfortable flying our 152. We had options. Now, we had to make a decision to take the ride or hop in our plane and head out. The logic was: someone at some point would fly our 152 out, and we would again need to fly this same plane at some point ourselves. If we waited, what would be different? A qualified mechanic not only said it was safe, but was flying out a plane in the same condition. We decided the problem had resolved itself. We would fly. After a lengthy check, we headed for the runway. I did a steep climb over the field, continued uphill after completing a long, slow circuit of the airport, and headed north with a 500 FPM climb. All the while, I knew I could glide back to the runway if needed. It was late to start our day in the Keys so we turned towards home. When We sighted I75, I knew I was home free. If there was trouble we were guaranteed a level spot to land. We made Lantana at full power with no sign of the earlier problem. I must say, I am impressed with the FAA system and the people who dedicate their careers to the safety of our skies. This system that trains and relies on the good judgment of the individual pilot also supports the decisions necessary in crisis. While part of the mandate of the FAA is to enforce the laws, a pilot's decisions are respected even when they are examined. I find great comfort in the FAA and the service it provides to general aviation. If our highways resembled our skies, perhaps the average driver would be less likely to knowingly break the law. Here's my question to this group. What caused the engine failure? More than one thought is welcome, but please explain your answer. I have one of two possibilities in my head, and invite any questions, advise, opinions, or wisdom. Warm regards from one very happy pilot. Marty |
#37
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I sometimes check mags at cruise power in the air - but only over flat
country. I also occasionally check them at idle on the ground to keep track of the condition of the points. One caveat is if you get a rough engine that is fixed by going to one mag, don't experiment with the BOTH position again. One fellow I knew did that on a 182 and had an exposion in the intake manifold that blew off some of the intake system hoses. The integrity of the intake system is critical to maintaining a semblance of the correct mixture and the open port(s) made things so lean he couldn't recover power. The range of spark ignitable mixture is less than three to one air/fuel ratio (from about 8:1 to maybe 20:1 by weight). |
#38
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Good point Scott
I think that everyone here is pretty much in agreement that carb ice is suspect numero uno here. But there is something that I teach my students to do is immediately pull the carb heat (and leave it on) while you are setting up for best glide and looking for a suitable landing site. It takes a tenth of a second to reach and pull that knob. The longer you wait to do this, the cooler the engine is getting and carb heat becomes less effective. Then after you have obtained best glide and you are heading for your landing site, then go through the troubleshooting and preparing for an emergency landing. -- Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Cessna 172H C-GICE |
#39
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I guess I was overly fixated (on the very real possibility) of the OP being
grabbed, rolled, then stuffed under a submerged log by a giant 30 ft long alligator. Chomp, chomp, chomp. Nah - those cuddly little guys? Didn'y ya ever watch Croc Hunter of Croc Dundee? Ain't those 'gators even more cuddly? We got bears. Grizzlies, brown, black, Kodiak, and - for a real thrill - Polar. We're what is known in aviation circles as carb-heat obsessive compulsive Didya ever see a musk-ox in mating season? More carb heat - More carb heat . . . . Tony -- Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Cessna 172H C-GICE |
#40
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"nrp" writes:
Did you try aggressively leaning while having full carb heat? Possibly your engine was flooding out from an iced carb venturi. You mentioned going to full rich, but if it is an icing situation, it may instead require further leaning .... I was going to ask about that. A lean engine runs hotter than a rich one. But that's mostly EGT, and I'm not sure it will work back enough to alter the carb temp. What say you folks? -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
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