Proposal to Airport for Soaring Club

Hello all,
We have a municipal airport wanting our club to relocate to their airport. It is a good location and has both a paved runway and an excellent 150' wide grass runway. This location could be a good contest site and closer to the city than our current location. The club is considering making a proposal to the airport board about what the club would need to re-locate. In the meantime we are going to have a couple of weekends at this airport to try it out. BTW the board said they would build hangar and would support contests..

SO, what would you suggest we request in the proposal. Thank you for your comments.

S9

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 10:05:27 PM UTC+3, S9 wrote:
Hello all,
We have a municipal airport wanting our club to relocate to their airport.. It is a good location and has both a paved runway and an excellent 150' wide grass runway. This location could be a good contest site and closer to the city than our current location. The club is considering making a proposal to the airport board about what the club would need to re-locate. In the meantime we are going to have a couple of weekends at this airport to try it out. BTW the board said they would build hangar and would support contests.

SO, what would you suggest we request in the proposal. Thank you for your comments.

Wow! This is like opposite land, compared to most airports. My club just had to move off the airport it had been on since the 60s (50s?)

How long are the grass and sealed runways?

Is there any provision for a crossing grass runway, even if only 1000 or 1200 ft long and even landing-only? Very useful if you've been away cross country and the wind's come up and from a different direction.

I don't know where you are, but many NZ clubs seem to have a roughly north/south runway (02/20, 34/16 etc) that is used most of the time, and then the WESTERLY VECTOR that is used when the wind comes up and the wave's a pumpin' (slash ridge). Those are the days when the Cessna drivers sit in the clubhouse drinking beer and telling lies while we're having the time of our lives.

How much existing traffic is there? What kind? Training? Warbirds? Parachute? Small airline? Is a towplane flying every 10-15 minutes going to annoy neighbours who don't mind the airport now? Are there many existing users of the grass runway? Can the gliders use an opposite direction circuit than the sealed runway? Is the soaring generally in that direction, or are you likely to often be coming back and crossing the powered circuit at (or below) circuit height? In there any kind of tower or information service there?

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 1:05:27 PM UTC-6, S9 wrote:
Hello all,
We have a municipal airport wanting our club to relocate to their airport.. It is a good location and has both a paved runway and an excellent 150' wide grass runway. This location could be a good contest site and closer to the city than our current location. The club is considering making a proposal to the airport board about what the club would need to re-locate. In the meantime we are going to have a couple of weekends at this airport to try it out. BTW the board said they would build hangar and would support contests.

SO, what would you suggest we request in the proposal. Thank you for your comments.

S9

Like Bruce said, it is important not to mix the pattern for power and gliders, they should be opposite for both landing directions. Also make sure they understand that you will have to bring the gliders and support vehicles to the runways and that you will retrieve gliders using such vehicles. This will greatly upset the normally pristine environment that power pilots on taxi- and runways are used to. Your host airport will also have to understand that you will push gliders onto the runway and hook them up, launch them. During that, possibly long time, the runway is not usable for other AC. Some power pilots "freak out" when realizing there is glider traffic and will avoid the airport or complain. We had a student pilot land at Harnett Co. AP in NC and find herself opposite to a glider on base (didn't listen to radio calls). She landed and the instructor had to fly in to get her, she was so "upset".
What most airport operators hate with a passion is car traffic on taxi and runways. Tell them how to minimize that. Also, how will visitors to the glider club get to the operating runway? Lots of friction points, good luck.
Herb, J7

On 2/19/2017 12:05 PM, S9 wrote:
Hello all, We have a municipal airport wanting our club to relocate to
their airport. It is a good location and has both a paved runway and an
excellent 150' wide grass runway. This location could be a good contest
site and closer to the city than our current location. The club is
considering making a proposal to the airport board about what the club
would need to re-locate. In the meantime we are going to have a couple of
weekends at this airport to try it out. BTW the board said they would build
hangar and would support contests.

SO, what would you suggest we request in the proposal. Thank you for your
comments.

Lotsa good input from Bruce and Herb already, and (maybe ) one tidbit from
me...

If/when it comes time to discuss suggested/preferred/taught landing patterns,
and the mixing of power/glider traffic, you may wish to Google-Earth Boulder,
CO, airport's layout, a relatively busy municipal field long-surrounded by a
city/housing and with 3 parallel (no crosswind) runways.

Since my arrival on-scene ('76) the preferred/taught/generally-insisted-upon
glider pattern has always always consisted of a crosswind entry at midfield at
800' agl, followed by the usual downwind/base/final to whichever runway is in
use, the glider pattern always inside the power pattern (which has "the usual
suggested entry points" from a 45-degree entry to the downwind, or, a
crosswind entry from overhead/beyond the numbers). Except under genyoowinely
unusual circumstances, the gliders land on the two northernmost runways, and
the power traffic (including some light jets) uses the southernmost runway.
It's worked well for a long time, with 1-2 clubs and a glider FBO on the north
side of the runways.

I'm aware of two pattern midairs involving gliders since 1970, both involving
a powerplane and a glider. One occurred (so I was told) on downwind before my
time there, and another involved an out-of-town, loose-formation-flying (so I
read) RV from out of town busting directly over the airport at 800' agl,
colliding head-on with a glider doing what all published procedures suggested
he *should* be doing. (In the latter instance, both planes were flyable after
the collision, though the RV stalled and spun into a lake turning from base to
final, with the expected result.)

YMMV.

Bob W.

The Sealed rwy (17/35) is 5600 x 75 and the turf rwy (18/36) is 4684 x 190. Turf is on the west side.
There is a cross runway wide enough for landing a glider although not noted.. General soaring is westerly from south to north and some southeasterly. FAA traffic stats say 68/day avg. I have not witness that level in the times I have been at the airport. the stats also note based 28 with landings single 28 / multi 3 and jet 1 . 81% transient and 19% local. no neighbors of concern with the ap being outside of the local town. The turf is not used much. The biggest concern would be the hangars are on the east side of the ap and thus taxi traffic to get to the west turf will require some thought. There is a Class C 20 NM to the east.
Could put power to the east and gliders to the west for landing ops.
Our current airport, we always escort visitors and glider rides and all wait at the FBO until their ride times. this seems to work well for the ap manager.

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 12:05:27 PM UTC-7, S9 wrote:
Hello all,
We have a municipal airport wanting our club to relocate to their airport.. It is a good location and has both a paved runway and an excellent 150' wide grass runway. This location could be a good contest site and closer to the city than our current location. The club is considering making a proposal to the airport board about what the club would need to re-locate. In the meantime we are going to have a couple of weekends at this airport to try it out. BTW the board said they would build hangar and would support contests.

SO, what would you suggest we request in the proposal. Thank you for your comments.

S9

Steve,

I've made a suggestion by PM.

Oklahoma Soaring Association has a nice home at Hinton Airport, 48 movement/week, hangar rentals, easy staging, nice lounge, etc. Distance from Oklahoma City is a factor. 100LL for sale.

El Reno Regional Airport is half the distance from Oklahoma City. The airport is a different class and category than Hinton. 100LL/JetA. Looking at Google Earth, it appears the turf runway is not adjacent to the hard surface, but about 350 years west. It's covered with 1500lb bales in Google Earth. Mowing and grass height should be discussed for sure. Minnesota Glider Club has a mowing issue and use of soft surfaces at Osceola, WI. Could be an extended cost if the hay and baling revenue is foregone for use of the runway. That's far enough for concurrent operations with the hard surface. I'm presuming that's the case because it's listed as a separate runway in AirNav. If it's the turf adjacent to the hard surface, that's one runway and no concurrent operations. It appears to be just wide enough to stage on the far side as you will need 250ft clearance from the runway centerline. This airport is under the same ADO as Midway-Midlothian in Texas. You might want to discuss with Carole Walker at Big Q Aviation who cannot stage on the soft surface because a drainage ditch is at the 250ft mark. The city airport board was willing to waive the distance but the ADO said no way. The turf runway that about 1000ft west appears to be just a tick over 200ft wide, so should work well. The logistics of moving from the hangars to that area just mean your group would have to show up much earlier than you normally do and stay later. Would make a very good winch site. Too bad that got sold.

Jets probably won't fly a pattern but will call about 15 miles out. I suspect there are several governmental flights weekly regarding FCI El Reno.

Is the airport manager on a career climbing track? If OSA is being recruited, who else is being recruited? How busy will this airport get? Tower being discussed? Will the next manager be your friend? Regional airports often have towers and class D.

Just my $.02,

Frank Whiteley

Are you guys saying that power should be flying left hand patterns and gliders right hand patterns (or vice versa) to the same runway or am I misunderstanding you? In my, admittedly limited, experience I've never seen that. I learned at a sometimes-busy municipal airport and flew there for many years. Everybody, more or less, entered from a 45 at the same altitude. There were rare conflicts with some power guys doing three mile finals, etc. and we had a fair amount of "non-locals" coming in for the cheap fuel but never anything that you could call a near-miss.

At airports with more than one parallel runway it makes sense to keep power on one side and gliders on the other. So yes all glider traffic would stay on opposite side of power and land on adjacent runway. At Turf, there are three parallel runways going east- west so power stays on the north side and glider traffic on the south. The center runway is used by the power traffic mostly because the south runway is used for staging and takeoff. If it gets crouded, and it often did, both would use the center runway and plan on taking off to either side.

KMEV has always had gliders flying their downwinds on the east side and power on the west side of the airport. Keeps traffic that flies at very different speeds away from each other.

They also take off and land on (gasp!) crossing runways.

On 2/22/2017 8:43 AM, wrote:
KMEV has always had gliders flying their downwinds on the east side and power on the west side of the airport. Keeps traffic that flies at very different speeds away from each other.

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Dan, 5J