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Differences in Italian vs US soaring instruction?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 15th 03, 08:45 PM
Michael
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Default Differences in Italian vs US soaring instruction?

Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.

So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
in the US.

I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
have had no luck at all.

Michael
  #2  
Old July 16th 03, 08:53 AM
Lars Peder Hansen
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Hello Michael,

I am not familiar with the Italian procedures, I live and fly in
Denmark. -But as a fellow instructor, I find it very reassuring and positive
that you take this approach to your instructing. -I have met others that
just fall into the habit of concluding that any "foreign" instruction and
procedures are simply inferior..

I have flown in quite a few countries around the Globe, including the
USA. -And yes, the procedures are different. Flying basics are the same, off
course, but it is the little things that gets you. E.g.. waggle the rudder
means "go" in the US as I remember it. -Found out when I checked the control
surfaces at the runway at Minden one day some years ago ;-)

It would certainly be helpful (and maybe even save a life or two) if there
was some kind of central database on the web where one could look up a
summary of the procedures used in various countries. Is this something that
the SSA could do in the US? What about the IGC? -the FAI? It seems like an
obvious task for the international, as well as the larger national
organizations.

Happy soaring,
Lars Peder





"Michael" wrote in message
om...
Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.

So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
in the US.

I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
have had no luck at all.

Michael



  #3  
Old July 16th 03, 09:32 AM
Basil Fairston
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Default

PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate.


"Michael" wrote in message
om...
Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.

So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
in the US.

I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
have had no luck at all.

Michael





  #4  
Old July 16th 03, 02:03 PM
Stephen Thomas
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Default

PTS? isn't that another TLA?



"Basil Fairston" wrote in message ...
PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate.


"Michael" wrote in message
om...
Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started
training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who
wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI
certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already
noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US
glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know.

So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is
not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ
from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in
formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he
has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it
in the US.

I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the
US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I
can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in
depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and
have had no luck at all.

Michael



  #5  
Old July 16th 03, 02:28 PM
Stefan
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Default

Stephen Thomas wrote:

PTS? isn't that another TLA?


Now what the hell is TLA?? And please don't answer with yet another
obscure acronym.

To the original questions: I don't know the Italian habits either, but I
know one thing: Never, never assume any habits as granted. Eg. at my
airfield there are two soaring clubs, and even the procedures of these
two clubs differ substantially. (Such as, when winch launching, whose
responibility is it to observe final (wing hoder vs start observer), who
does the radio with the winch driver (start observer vs. pilot) etc.)
Then, nobody here around considers rudder waggling to be any signal at
all. Everybody waggles with all control surfaces and with the airbrakes
just as a prestart check. (All our gliders are radio equipped, something
thing that *we* take as granted.) The big problem is, you can't just ask
people what their habits are, because they are so used to them that they
are no longer aware that these are habits.

Formal cross country preparation? I have no idea what you mean by this.
Usually I have a rough plan, go up and then fly this plan or change it
according to weather situation and mood. My only "plan" is to always
stay within gliding range of a landeable field.

PTS landing? Whatever this may be, a landing is considered correct if
the glider is smoothly put down within the first 60 meters of the
runway. No, we have no name for this.

Bottom line: I would recommend that you just go through the whole
routine with a foreign pilot. Encourage him to comment your procedures,
whether they meet what he has done or whether they differ or whether
they are entirely new to him or whether he misses something. Like this,
you both will learn something.

Stefan
  #6  
Old July 16th 03, 03:38 PM
Gail
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Default


PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate.


Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as
elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with
only a mere 130+ hours.

Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot
recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider
pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the
other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out
early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future.

The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI
members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so.


Gail


  #7  
Old July 16th 03, 05:39 PM
Simon Walker
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Default


Hi Gail,

There is actually no prescribed direction to turn at
release of tow in the UK.
You can turn either way, and I do. However, most people
do assume that it is 'Turn left off tow'
What kind of nasty accident do you imagine might happen
if you turn left instead of right or vice versa?




At 15:06 16 July 2003, Gail wrote:

PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings
are supposed to be
accurate.


Here...here! Although having said that, my parking
isn't always quite as
elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that
I'm a novice pilot with
only a mere 130+ hours.

Talking of international differences, I was talking
to a German glider pilot
recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested
that we (glider
pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh,
in Germany its the
other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm
glad I found this out
early it might have saved me from a nasty accident
in the future.

The curious thing about all of this is I would have
thought that all FAI
members would have subscribed to the same standards
but it seems not so.


Gail






  #8  
Old July 16th 03, 05:57 PM
Simon Walker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Gail,

There is actually no prescribed way to turn at release
of tow in the UK.
You can turn either way, and I regularly do.
Sometimes there can be cloud to the left and also when
I'm being towed into an aerobatic box I will very often
turn right depending on my desired positioning.
It is generally accepted however that most people turn
left.
Give a climbing right turn a go next time and see which
way the tuggie turns!
Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite
way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot
that they instinctively turn right.
with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in a
descending right turn there should still be no conflict.
So no nasty accidents.


At 15:06 16 July 2003, Gail wrote:

PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings
are supposed to be
accurate.


Here...here! Although having said that, my parking
isn't always quite as
elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that
I'm a novice pilot with
only a mere 130+ hours.

Talking of international differences, I was talking
to a German glider pilot
recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested
that we (glider
pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh,
in Germany its the
other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm
glad I found this out
early it might have saved me from a nasty accident
in the future.

The curious thing about all of this is I would have
thought that all FAI
members would have subscribed to the same standards
but it seems not so.


Gail






  #9  
Old July 16th 03, 06:33 PM
Michael
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Basil Fairston" wrote
PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate.


Since I started this mess, I'll try to answer some of the questions.
While I've replied to this message in particular, I've included the
points raised in others.

PTS means practical test standards, which are detailed descriptions of
what is covered on a checkride. http://av-info.faa.gov/ is a web site
that contains them. It includes a description of an accuracy landing.
If you've not flown in the US, I assure you it's not what you think
it is.

In this situation (training a pilot who is already proficient towards
a rating) many maneuvers will only be performed once or twice. There
is no real syllabus for this kind of training, and relatively few
flights are required. It's not a big deal if I were training a
US-trained glider pilot towards the commercial and CFI, because he
would have absorbed normal operating practices and habits while
training towards the private. In this case, I am training an
Italian-trained pilot, who has absorbed DIFFERENT normal operating
practices and habits. I have already noticed some that are
safety-critical, including the rudder waggle that is used by the
glider pilot to signal the start of tow in the US. It is not
reasonable to have him repeat the entire private syllabus, and
suggesting this certainly implies that the foreign training is somehow
inferior.

Formal XC planning is a normal staple of instruction in the US.
Briefly, in the US glider XC is taught as a series of
airport-to-airport hops, such that an outlanding will most likely be
at an airport. I know many US-trained glider pilots who are active in
XC flying and have never landed anywhere other than an airport,
because they use this method. I use this method myself - I have
limited experience in off-airport operations (all power) and recognize
their unavoidable hazards; I am thus not very interested in hearing
that this is unnecessary.

The planning is done by assuming a reduced glide ratio (typically half
of what is published) and drawing segments between airports. Winds
aloft data and polar information are then used to determine minimum
altitudes for going ahead at any given point, as well as predicted
groundspeeds and crosswind correction angles. The method is not
perfect (once I nearly had to land off airport due to some strong
unexpected sink) but it does reduce the probability of an off-airport
landing with the consequent hazards of unknown field conditions and
obstacles that are not seen until too late.

The formal XC planning process is a transitional stage; with
experience a pilot learns to judge go-ahead points by eye. However, I
believe it is a useful method that formalizes the many factors
involved and allows a low time glider pilot to venture out with a
measure of confidence. It is certainly unacceptable for any glider
instructor in the US to be unfamiliar with this process, since it is
the norm here.

In the US, we turn right and climb on release. Italy seems to do the
same. I understand that some countries do otherwise. Obviously
either way is fine, as long as both glider and tow pilot are on the
same page.

Michael
  #10  
Old July 16th 03, 07:02 PM
Martin Gregorie
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Default

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:38:07 +0100, "Gail"
wrote:


PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate.


Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as
elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with
only a mere 130+ hours.

Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot
recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider
pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the
other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out
early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future.

Not everywhere in the UK.

At Cambridge we climb to the right after release like the rest of the
world - except during the Gransden Regionals where we climb left to
keep the visitors happy. I don't know the reason behind this - it
predates my membership by a long time.

The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI
members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so.

They do just about everywhere outside the UK. I've heard the basis is
that a left turning tug gives its left-seat pilot a better view of
goings on below him.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

 




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