Pre Takeoff Checklists

On Mar 24, 10:10*am, wrote:
On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 wrote:

Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
on a checklist.

Than you haven't spent much time in the back seat teaching new pilots
or reviewing experienced ones. *Glad we don't have to worry about you!

MM

Still not buyin'. Clearing the airspace (or groundspace) you intend
to occupy in the next 60 seconds or so is a continuous requirement for
safety. If that isn't being done automatically and continuously, I
don't see how a checklist item is going to help. You are right: I'm
not an instructor. Presuming that you are, please accept my thanks
for doing the job!

-T8

On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 wrote:
On Mar 23, 11:55*pm, wrote:

On Mar 23, 1:07*pm, Dave White wrote:

*Adding things like "look"

and "land" just garbages them up.

LOOK outside for traffic in the pattern
LANDing area clear of obstructions

I'd place these in the "killer items" list not the "garbage"

Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
on a checklist.

The hazard that does claim lives that might be worthy of "lookout" is
traffic coming in from *other* than the normal traffic pattern.
"Tunnel vision" is easily acquired, shed only through effort and
discipline.

Dave White: like your approach.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...28X53127&key=1

Many sites have differing patterns for power and gliders. I've flown
from sites that have patterns for gliders, light power, and heavy
power with multiple entries and altitudes. My club glider port has
opposite power and glider patterns, north and east for power, south
and west for gliders.

Frank Whiteley

On Mar 23, 8:03*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nine Bravo Ground wrote:

* * invent/devise/whatever a cable/lever/remote electric valve that lets
you open the bottle while flying. I used bicycle cable to a simple
bolt-on lever to the oxygen knob on the bottle in my Libelle. Easy - it
only has to be cracked less than a quarter turn. My other four gliders
had the bottle where a determined pilot could reach back to the baggage
area or beside himself and turn it on.

A couple of points

Mountain High has a clever remote valve operating device for their
cylinders.

Some older oxygen cylinder valves may leak past the stem if not fully
opened. I open O2 valves fully to seat the stem seal.

On Mar 24, 8:50*am, T8 wrote:
On Mar 24, 10:10*am, wrote:

On Mar 24, 7:14*am, T8 wrote:

Aw come on... I don't believe for a moment that any pilot needs that
on a checklist.

Than you haven't spent much time in the back seat teaching new pilots
or reviewing experienced ones. *Glad we don't have to worry about you!

MM

Still not buyin'. *Clearing the airspace (or groundspace) you intend
to occupy in the next 60 seconds or so is a continuous requirement for
safety. *If that isn't being done automatically and continuously, I
don't see how a checklist item is going to help. *You are right: I'm
not an instructor. *Presuming that you are, please accept my thanks
for doing the job!

-T8




It's about intentionally redirecting ones focus of attention. Some
people actually need help thinking about this.

LANDing area also includes having an alternate, both during off-
airport and on-airport landings.

On Mar 24, 11:17*am, wrote:

It's about intentionally redirecting ones focus of attention. *Some
people actually need help thinking about this.

I get that, I agree. My objection is that if a checklist item is
necessary to make this happen at pattern & landing time, then the
lookout discipline during other phases of flight is probably lacking.
Intentional redirection of attention away from front/center needs to
be happening continuously.

LANDing area also includes having an alternate, both during off-
airport and on-airport landings.

I like that.

-T8

On Mar 23, 9:37*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Mar 23, 9:01*am, Nine Bravo Ground wrote:



On Mar 23, 7:48*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Mar 23, 8:31*am, Grider Pirate wrote:

On Mar 23, 7:24*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Mar 23, 8:20*am, Tony wrote:

Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
prevent problems you have encountered.

I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

Ditto the checklist you use, mostly due to law of primacy.

Frank Whiteley

I don't know CBSIFTCB. *I use

A ltimiter
B elts
B allast
C ontrols
C anopy
C able
D ivebrakes
D irection (wind)
E mergency plan

.. and for landing:

F laps
U ndercarriage
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
L ook
L and

C ontrols
B allast
S traps
I nstruments
F laps
T rim
C anopy
B rakes

W ater
U ndercarriage
L loose items
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
L ook
L and

as the eventual migration from USTALL in the late '70's. *Some of the
liturgy of soaring.

Does "Land" mean anything beyond the obvious?

9B

IIRC, in the original USTALL I learned in 1977 the second L (modified
in later club checks) was 'Look again', which is good advice.

I use "BUFSTALL".

Ballast: (Dump takes up to 10 minutes so it's first - "S" turn while
looking back or check shadow to make sure water is going overboard.)

Undercarriage: (Approaching and circling field with gear down lets
people know I want to land - I have two gear warning systems for
backup.)

Flaps: (Set as appropriate or think about when and where to set them,
i.e. go to full flaps on short final),

Speed(s): (Select two speeds for conditions: a faster pattern speed
and a slower, yellow triangle "over-the-fence" speed.)

Trim-set:

Air brakes-check: (I've found them frozen on several occasions and
once only one side opened.)

Look: (Final check for traffic on the ground and in the air, select
aim, touchdown and stopping points which will be very different if "A"
didn't work.)

Land. The final L for Land isn't redundant. It's a reminder the
checklist is complete and it's time to focus 100% of my attention to
making a safe, accurate landing.

There's a 1000 other things that could be discussed for inclusion such
as radio calls. I think a "landing checklist" should be as short as
possible while covering the basic items. "Basic" in the sense that
it'll be expensive and/or I'll look stupid if they're overlooked.

On Mar 23, 6:16*pm, Barny wrote:

Some items are there to guarantee the flight is comfortable and hassle
free. About 1 in 10 flights I go back to get something from the car or
hanger after I'm gridded.

Does that mean the checklist is NOT working for you? I use a prepush
checklist and very seldom have to go back for anything.

I do need to change the existing item "Task sheet" to "Read the task
sheet!" though

Andy (GY)

On Mar 24, 9:51*am, T8 wrote:
*My objection is that if a checklist item is
necessary to make this happen at pattern & landing time, then the
lookout discipline during other phases of flight is probably lacking.
Intentional redirection of attention away from front/center needs to
be happening continuously.


Yup. Objection sustained. Remember though, that under stress or
overload the human brain tends to diminish in it's ability to handle
complex tasks. Instructors try to impart techniques that will keep
people from getting killed when they are functioning at a primitive
level. You'd be surprised how often very smart people do very dumb
things. Experience shows that it's better to expect errors and have a
plan to catch them then to expect people to do what they are supposed
to do.

How about a mental checklist for the wingrunner (to add to the safety
of flight)?

CARDS

C- canopy closed and latched
A- airbrakes as appropriate
R- rudder lock removed
D- dolleys removed
S- scan infront of the glider, along the rope, the towplane, and the
traffic pattern

And, this works as a final-items checklist for the glider pilot, too.

Raul Boerner

Some items are there to guarantee the flight is comfortable and hassle
free. About 1 in 10 flights I go back to get something from the car or
hanger after I'm gridded.
*****************
Does that mean the checklist is NOT working for you? *I use a prepush
checklist and very seldom have to go back for anything. I do need to
change the existing item "Task sheet" to "Read the task sheet!"
*though
Andy (GY)
*****************
Going back for something that makes the flight more comfortable means
it's working great (at least for me). I suppose I could review it
before moving from the hanger to the grid, but the car is usually
parked very near the grid. My post was meant to show the benefits of a
written comprehensive (aka long) list vs. acronyms. I think the extra
items have really improved my safety and reduced frustrations. Some of
the words carry more meaning: Camel back "closed" and "in reach" = 3
things (have it, not leaking on me, able to reach the hose). Cell
phone off and in side pocket = 2 things: (battery not run down due to
no service & not uncomfortable in my pocket). Phone rings, not able
to get it out of my pocket, beeping every 30 seconds for the missed
call. Stuff like that really helped me.
~Bruce