Club Class

On Dec 20, 1:14*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Dec 20, 10:25*am, Tony wrote:

It was my impression that the tasking at the regional i went to was
satisfactory to everyone involved. *The circles were large thanks to
gliders ranging from my Cherokee to Dave Coggins' Nimbus. *If a pilot
felt we weren't flying far enough each day it was his own fault, IMO.
The weather was very consistent throughout the entire region which
definitely helped. My experience is a very small slice of the contest
world though, so I'm rather pollyanna-ish about the subject.

Tony, it is fundamentally impossible to create a fair, challenging
race (not organized timed XC) task when the range of gliders is
Cherokee to Nimbus. *Sure, you can throw out a short AAT with huge
turn areas and send them out - but that isn't racing!

I've got nothing agains the lower performance gliders - but I've CD'd
enough ASA contests to appreciate how hard it is to make challenging
tasks without stooping to the "fits-all" AAT.

The point is - get as many gliders as possible together at the same
time, sort them into similar performance groups, then task
accordingly. *What is so hard about that? *It's already done with FAI
classes! *Then we can see the return of the speed task, and put AATs
back where they belong - as weather option *tasks!

I am looking forward to the day I can get a club class glider though.
In the meantime I will have a lot of fun flying sports class in my
Cherokee.

Looking forward to racing with you!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Kirk,

now I understand better. I didn't realize you were focused on
assigned tasks instead of TAT's. Agree that with a wide range of
handicaps the assigned task is impossible to task fairly, which I
suppose is why it isn't used in the sports class.

I do like the idea of separating gliders by handicap range instead of
wingspan as has become an option in the last few years. If Moriarty
would run a low/medium/high performance contest instead of just medium/
high i would probably go. only problem is i might be the only one
there.

Who is responsible for the USA "Club Class" list that BB linked?

The max weight they show for the LS1-B/C/F is incorrect.

The weight of 772 lbs is most likely for the "F" model.

My glider was built as a "C" then granted to become a "D" via a letter
from LS back in the good ol' days. The max weight was increased,
again only by letter and not by any physical change in the glider, to
752 lbs to allow for water ballast. The B and C probably have lower
max weights.

And why is the "D" model not listed?

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood

On Dec 20, 12:30*pm, Tony wrote:
On Dec 20, 1:14*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:









On Dec 20, 10:25*am, Tony wrote:

It was my impression that the tasking at the regional i went to was
satisfactory to everyone involved. *The circles were large thanks to
gliders ranging from my Cherokee to Dave Coggins' Nimbus. *If a pilot
felt we weren't flying far enough each day it was his own fault, IMO.
The weather was very consistent throughout the entire region which
definitely helped. My experience is a very small slice of the contest
world though, so I'm rather pollyanna-ish about the subject.

Tony, it is fundamentally impossible to create a fair, challenging
race (not organized timed XC) task when the range of gliders is
Cherokee to Nimbus. *Sure, you can throw out a short AAT with huge
turn areas and send them out - but that isn't racing!

I've got nothing agains the lower performance gliders - but I've CD'd
enough ASA contests to appreciate how hard it is to make challenging
tasks without stooping to the "fits-all" AAT.

The point is - get as many gliders as possible together at the same
time, sort them into similar performance groups, then task
accordingly. *What is so hard about that? *It's already done with FAI
classes! *Then we can see the return of the speed task, and put AATs
back where they belong - as weather option *tasks!

I am looking forward to the day I can get a club class glider though.
In the meantime I will have a lot of fun flying sports class in my
Cherokee.

Looking forward to racing with you!

Cheers,

Kirk


"I do like the idea of separating gliders by handicap range instead of
wingspan as has become an option in the last few years."

The above is really descriptive of where we are at now, in regards to
handicap racing in the USA.

There is another option for handicap racing in the US.

The existing four main FAI classes flown in the USA are really classes
formed by handicaps already, handicaps defined by performance,
dictated by flaps and wingspan, categorized into their perspective
class. It would not be a large conceptual leap to form classes
dictated by performance, regardless of flaps, age and wingspan.
Instead of Std., 15 meter, 18 meter and Open, divide the encompassing
fleet into three classes. This would allow more pilots to compete.
This is really a logical step, considering the fairly low number of
sailplanes and pilots, racing now. I think both the Std and Open Class
Nationals, last year, had 16 pilots each, including guests. There were
14 pilots in the 18 meter class. Allowing older sailplanes to compete
in these existing classes, with handicaps, would probably improve
attendance.

We have gradually grown into a "caste" system of sailplane racing and
the resulting effort to keep the classes pure (handicap wise), has
brought us to the lower numbers racing in FAI and the emergence of
Sports and Club Class.

If the resistance to adding another class is really because of the
ever dwindling number of racing pilots and sailplanes in the existing
classes, maybe handicapping the existing classes, that were
initially formed due to their handicaps, will vitalize class racing
again.

Just a thought.

Mike









66

Kirk,

now I understand better. *I didn't realize you were focused on
assigned tasks instead of TAT's. *Agree that with a wide range of
handicaps the assigned task is impossible to task fairly, which I
suppose is why it isn't used in the sports class.

I do like the idea of separating gliders by handicap range instead of
wingspan as has become an option in the last few years. *If Moriarty
would run a low/medium/high performance contest instead of just medium/
high i would probably go. only problem is i might be the only one
there.

On Dec 20, 7:13*pm, "Peter von Tresckow" wrote:
Like Tony I am a lowly vintage sailplane owner (Ka-6Cr), but am interested
in racing. I have participated in the Chicago soaring club's Memorial Day
contest, and had a blast. After hearing about Tony's Cherokee adventures I
am looking to find a sports contest to go to this summer.

I personally like the concept of having "tiered" handicapping and tasking,
putting similar performing gliders in the same group. To me being able to
rce against similar performing ships would be an incentive to participate in
racing. On the other had I find it discouraging going up against a nimbus in
sports with my Ka-6 even with the handicap.

Racing is/should be fun. Once people see that participation ought to go up.

Peter

yea pete but even if you do have to fly against Nimbii, you'll still
have fun

On Dec 20, 10:15*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Dick Johnson often said that Sports Class is the "entry & exit class",
so don't forget about us old duffers that still like to race, but no
longer get excited about flying in the rat-pack classes. Where can I
find a list of Club Class ships?
JJ

What defnes a "club" class ship is one of those great mysteries in
life. The blessed list of gliders for US team selection is here

http://www.ussoaringteam.org/ustc%20...ssList2008.pdf

But... that was based on the 2008 IGC definition of club class, and
the IGC adds and deletes gliders every year. Presumably the team will
update that list at some point, or perhaps rethink the rule limiting
team selection to pilots who fly gliders on a specific but ever-
changing list.

US "club" class contests are for now free to define club anyway they
want to, so long as they can persuade the contest committee chair that
what they're doing is sensible. The Moriarty contest website

http://moriarty2011.susanmcallister.com/

defines club as:
Club Class (.935-1.05 handicap plus Ventus (15m), ASW 20 (15m), and
LS-6 (15m)

Your Genesis is pretty safe in club class!

John Cochrane

Everybody:

The only reason we, the organizers of last year's Moriarty contest,
defined club as .935-1.05 handicap range PLUS the other three is that
the SSA Club Class Eligible Glider List allows for these other three
15m configuration ships and it was felt that this first stab at a
western US Cub Class contest should include those ships for
participation's sake.

In keeping with the general idea that a US Club Class should adhere as
closely as possible to the ever changing, as BB correctly states, IGC
Club Class List, the idea should be to keep to the .935-1.05 range
intact with basically no additions or subtractions. Why this range? It
basically encompasses the the IGC Club Class Glider List, PLUS some
ships that had been on the list but are not now (i.e. Hph 304cz+c) and
the HP's. This range truly captures the essence of Cub Class as it is
practiced everywhere but here in the USA.

There is pretty strong support among US Club Class proponents that we
would like a US Club Class that VERY closely tracks the IGC List. That
means no motorgliders, a defined list of gliders,and 15m or less only.
That said, given the distances involved in US Competitive soaring, the
inclusion of all ships within the defined handicap range should
probably be considered so as to promote growth in participation.

Thanks for the ongoing interest in the US Club Class movement.

EY & EY Ground