Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

At 01:47 05 April 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

This thread makes me want to go find a LS


A member of my club has just emaiied the members offering this


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...H4lsU7jozxg4EX
2pwmz0-V51u0lVMJioqaz6DmBZvTtLK_IA?
key=Z2RRN29MYkljQTV6TmtvbndNMzI0YjVqTmJmQndB

£30 000 UK pounds Its a lovely machine

Michael,
There’s an elephant in the room that nobody’s talking about.. Your price range means older ships, older ships have old gelcoat. Properly refinishing a 15 meter ship is going to cost a minimum of 20K! If you buy a ship with so-so finish, your going to sell it a few years down the road with less than so-so finish! My number one priority would be buying a ship with recent refinish in Urethane. Number 2 priority would be good instruments, number 3 priority would be trailer, then comes auto hookup’s, disc brakes, nose tow hook, etc. I am a prior owner the LS-3a that Stowers is brokering at Minden. Feel free to contact me for any questions about that bird.
JJ

As the Chief Refinishing Officer (CRO) of my club, let me wholeheartedly agree with JJ. The bottom line is that refinishing an older (club class glider) doesn't make economic sense unless you are doing it yourself because have the time and skills, doing it because of the love of the glider, or doing it because you are a sado masochist.

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K. Each of those owners at some point in the near past dropped significant money into those ships that they will never get back.

In your price range, the LS3 that JJ mentions as well as a Pegasus that showed up and maybe one or two others would be the best bets. As others have mentioned, a partnership would let you get into an LS4, ASW-20, ASW-24 etc in much better shape which would let you spend more time flying and less time fettling.

p3







On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:09:51 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Michael,
There’s an elephant in the room that nobody’s talking about. Your price range means older ships, older ships have old gelcoat. Properly refinishing a 15 meter ship is going to cost a minimum of 20K! If you buy a ship with so-so finish, your going to sell it a few years down the road with less than so-so finish! My number one priority would be buying a ship with recent refinish in Urethane. Number 2 priority would be good instruments, number 3 priority would be trailer, then comes auto hookup’s, disc brakes, nose tow hook, etc. I am a prior owner the LS-3a that Stowers is brokering at Minden. Feel free to contact me for any questions about that bird.
JJ

To get an idea of what a refinish entails, take a look at Richard's work on his Ventus B... http://craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

140.5 hrs not counting build-up (gear, TOST hook, belts, instruments, registration marks/contest ID, rudder, etc), weighing. All in a wonderful workshop with all the right gear and skills to do it. That's just for the fuselage, now add in the wings.

Conventional wisdom is 400 hours +/- for a complete standard class glider. In our experience (decent shop, decent skills, decent equipment) we have taken about 10-15% more time, but we've been starting with basket cases, so strip down to glass.


On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:12:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
To get an idea of what a refinish entails, take a look at Richard's work on his Ventus B... http://craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

140.5 hrs not counting build-up (gear, TOST hook, belts, instruments, registration marks/contest ID, rudder, etc), weighing. All in a wonderful workshop with all the right gear and skills to do it. That's just for the fuselage, now add in the wings.

Thanks guys, I am looking at finish, or last time refinished as my number 1 factor in deciding which of these era gliders to buy.

In fact this brings up a question important to my current top 5 candidate list:
One of the candidates is a DG 200, the current owner who I feel is trying to be accurate and honest in his representation of the glider during our phone calls.
States the glider has the original finish in good condition, with no crazing in the gel coat, but some cracking in the area of the dive brakes.
He is indicating that DG gliders of the era were very well finished, and do not have a history of needing to be refinished often.
Again, he seems to be very honest and forthright to me, but I do not have glider purchase history experience to back up my impression.

Can anyone comment on the DG 200 - 202 finish quality over time?
I am aware the finish quality over time is highly affected by whether the glider was stored, or left out in the elements. I am asking more in general, or typical wear.

Thanks again for all the great information. When I started this thread I would never have thought I'd get this much information. I appreciate it, and I am listening and taking this discussion heavily into my decision process.

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:46:26 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K.

So a fair price for a "Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape" would be $8K. Invest $25-30K in repair and you'd get a good glider for $33-38K. Buyer deserves some compensation for the hassle, risk and delay of refurbishment.

People who're setting unreasonably high prices for their poor condition gliders are hurting themselves, and hurting the sport by making it harder for young people to get into the sport.

I suggest that people who want to get into the sport start offering a reasonable price for trashed gliders $5-8K. Sellers (or the executors of their estates) will eventually come to their senses.

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 8:07:42 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:46:26 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K.

So a fair price for a "Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape" would be $8K. Invest $25-30K in repair and you'd get a good glider for $33-38K. Buyer deserves some compensation for the hassle, risk and delay of refurbishment.

People who're setting unreasonably high prices for their poor condition gliders are hurting themselves, and hurting the sport by making it harder for young people to get into the sport.

I suggest that people who want to get into the sport start offering a reasonable price for trashed gliders $5-8K. Sellers (or the executors of their estates) will eventually come to their senses.

Here is the reality from somebody who has been doing this for more than 2 decades.
It is almost impossible to buy a glider at a price the seller will accept, refinish it commercially, and sell it at a favorable price. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it, including the refinish people.
My experience is that a refinish adds somewhere around half the commercial cost to the salable value of the glider.
A recent example.
Club member buys a Cirrus 75 with older Komet trailer for $12000.
Over 2 years he refinished it in my shop. It required almost exactly 400 hours, mostly his labor. Materials(polyester finish) cost about $1000.
He now has a very nice glider that may get $22K or so on the market.

Someone wanting to enter the market that does not have the resources to pay for a "nice"(defined as not expecting to need a refinish anytime soon) glider, is going to have to settle for an older glider needing clean up and care and fly it for a few years while saving up the dough for a nicer glider.

UH

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 10:31:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 8:07:42 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:46:26 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K.

So a fair price for a "Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape" would be $8K. Invest $25-30K in repair and you'd get a good glider for $33-38K. Buyer deserves some compensation for the hassle, risk and delay of refurbishment.

People who're setting unreasonably high prices for their poor condition gliders are hurting themselves, and hurting the sport by making it harder for young people to get into the sport.

I suggest that people who want to get into the sport start offering a reasonable price for trashed gliders $5-8K. Sellers (or the executors of their estates) will eventually come to their senses.

Here is the reality from somebody who has been doing this for more than 2 decades.
It is almost impossible to buy a glider at a price the seller will accept, refinish it commercially, and sell it at a favorable price. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it, including the refinish people.
My experience is that a refinish adds somewhere around half the commercial cost to the salable value of the glider.
A recent example.
Club member buys a Cirrus 75 with older Komet trailer for $12000.
Over 2 years he refinished it in my shop. It required almost exactly 400 hours, mostly his labor. Materials(polyester finish) cost about $1000.
He now has a very nice glider that may get $22K or so on the market.

Someone wanting to enter the market that does not have the resources to pay for a "nice"(defined as not expecting to need a refinish anytime soon) glider, is going to have to settle for an older glider needing clean up and care and fly it for a few years while saving up the dough for a nicer glider.

After reading JJ's post I went through the wings and wheels For Sale Ads.
There are at least two refinished with urethane LS3a's in very good condition in there for the mid 20's. With Clamshell trailers and updated instruments and new water bags. Jeez that's a lot of glider for the mid 20's IMHO.

I've owned both the ASW20 and a LS3a and while some say the ASW 20 will beat a LS3a, that might be true, might not, it's very very close.
The LS3 and LS3a are wonderful ships, big cockpit, big panel, easier to fly than a -20, launch and land like a piece of cake and do get 40/1 And that landing gear lever, Dick Johnson wrote it was the best system he ever saw, and he was right, soooo easy and fast.
About 25k- that's a great price! what's not to like about that ??