A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

"Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'"



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old April 29th 05, 03:33 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

A difference? It points out that erroneous conclusions are possible,
and that speculation as to the cause of aircraft mishaps is risky.


Whether he was short of fuel due to poor planning or due to a fuel leak is
irrelevant, the end result of fuel starvation over the lake is death.



I'm sure you have traversed hostile terrain in your Champ at one time
or another.


I've never crossed terrain where loss of power meant my death.


  #42  
Old April 29th 05, 03:34 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris" wrote in message
...

And maybe it was the fact that he was only 20 years old.


Are you saying 20 year olds are stupid?



  #43  
Old April 29th 05, 03:36 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

If his actual fuel burn exceeded his planned fuel burn, it would
indicate fuel leaking via one route or another.


Not necessarily. It could indicate he was weak on flight planning or proper
use of the mixture control.


  #44  
Old April 29th 05, 04:05 AM
A Lieberman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:12:54 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote:

What I find disappointing is the late pilot's lack of authoritative
attitude while exercising the duties of Pilot In Command. He called
ATC and confessed his dwindling fuel state only minutes before
ditching. He asked ATC if he should exit the aircraft while it was
sinking. It was as though he was praying instead of thinking.


Just curious Larry,

You seem to be very hard on this individual. Have you, yourself been
confronted with a real deal emergency while PIC?

I have had (what others called emergencies) 3 situations where I did what I
was trained to do, and that was aviate, navigate and then communicate. I
had a failed vacuum pump during a night flight, partial engine failure
(lost a cylinder in flight) and an electrical fire.

Only in the cylinder failure did I declare an emergency. I posted my
experience to the rec.aviation.student newsgroup under "first emergency
which is archived in Google. I say this, because I always thought I would
be the type to "panic", yet I listened to what my instructor always said,
and that is to aviate (fly the plane), navigate and then communicate.

On the vacuum pump failure and electrical fire, after aviating and
navigating, I advised ATC of my problems.

From what I heard on the tapes, it appeared to me, the pilot was doing what
he was suppose to be doing. Aviate, navigate and then communicate.

Yes, I agree, he made some questionable decisions in the first place, and
even though the outcome came out with the ultimate price, it really seem to
me, that he did do the three golden rules of aviate, navigate and
communicate.

He made a survivable landing in water at night, which in my opinion, seems
like he was aviating the plane. He knew his position, so he was navigating,
and he was communicating, from everything I heard from the tapes on what
seemed to be a very level, professional level.

Monday night quarter backing is great, but when the pressure cooker is on,
we tend to react much differently then the comforts of our homes.

Anyone who fails to recognize that they are the primary factor in
saving themselves in an emergency situation is doomed.
Condolences to the surviving family members. RIP.


Only thing I can agree with any of your posts so far.

Allen
(who pretty much had to change his britches after aviating a "3 cylinder
plane" for 20 minutes.
  #45  
Old April 29th 05, 04:42 AM
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:27:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

What I find disappointing is the late pilot's lack of authoritative
attitude while exercising the duties of Pilot In Command. He called
ATC and confessed his dwindling fuel state only minutes before
ditching. He asked ATC if he should exit the aircraft while it was
sinking. It was as though he was praying instead of thinking.

Why didn't he _TELL_ ATC what he needed, and _request_ that ATC
contact the Coast Guard and despatch a helo to his location? Why
didn't he take _command_ of his situation?


Because he was clueless.


So his DE was to blame for granting him an airman certificate?


  #46  
Old April 29th 05, 04:50 AM
Peter R.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Dighera wrote:

That's why I have considerably more respect for those Usenet posters
who provide accurate personal identification information, and shun
those who post anonymously through a mail-to-news gateway.
Accountability fosters respect.


I am not sure if you are making a general comment or are specifically
directing that at me. If the latter, let me assure you that I only post
through Google while I am at my "non-home daytime location." Newsgroup
ports are blocked at that location, yet I still have to get my aviation
newsgroup fix.

Additionally, I stopped posting my last name in the news reader FROM field
years ago after I was on the receiving end of a rather personal attack by a
newsgroup troll. Regulars here know my last name because it is posted in
Jay's Rogue's Gallery. My contributions to this group, which aren't all
that spectacular, do not need a last name attached and if you don't respect
that, then too bad.

Seriously, though, you know that past NTSB statistics are slanted
towards the scenario of a pilot failing to ensure adequete fuel before
a flight.


No. I didn't know that. Are you able to cite any evidence of that
sort of NTSB bias?


OK, first off, let me apologize for using the word "slanted." I didn't
mean to imply any NTSB wrong-doing. I simply meant that looking over the
accident reports, one can clearly see that there are many, many more GA
aircraft accidents due to improper fuel planning than there are due to a
mechanical fuel loss.

Search the accident archives for "Fuel Exhaustion" and choose those cases
that have a probable cause.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

I queried the last 10 years, then started pulling up every report in the
resulting set to read the probable cause. I hope you can accept 10 years
worth of the NTSB's 35 or so years of online history as a valid statistical
sample. The news media certainly accepts a far lower percentage for their
political polls.

Within the last 10 years, there were 950 probable cause accident reports
returned with those key words in them. A few reports were not at all
related to fuel exhaustion despite being returned, so I subtracted those
out, leaving about 946.

In the reports I read, there were basically three types of fuel exhaustion:
Pilot's failure to properly determine fuel usage for flight, pilot failing
to switch tanks, and mechanical cause. Since we are basically disagreeing
on mechanical versus pilot error, I lumped fuel mismanagement with improper
fuel planning, seeing that these two are pilot error and not mechanical.

After a bit over an hour I counted about 600 or so that listed the pilot's
improper fuel planning (or similar words to that affect). I stopped
counting at that point, seeing that I reached almost 2/3s of all fuel
exhaustion accidents were attributed to a pilot's improper fuel planning.

I encourage you to conduct the same research.

How is that illuminating?


It is illuminating to me that a low-time pilot was able to communicate to
ATC that he was out of fuel while still in the descent.

In listening to the ATC recording of this accident, the pilot seemed to be
pretty certain that there was no remaining fuel on board. I do not see how
a GA pilot who is confident in his fuel supply (which would be any pilot
who properly planned consumption, fueled the aircraft, then monitored fuel
usage en route) could conclude with enough confidence to broadcast to ATC
that the engine stopped due to fuel exhaustion. There are many other
reasons an engine can stop besides fuel exhaustion.

Look, I am not saying with certainty that this pilot failed to properly
plan fuel consumption. The NTSB will determine the cause. I am merely
stating that the fact that the pilot knew he was out of fuel was
interesting to me and the NTSB accident archives support the probability
that a fuel exhaustion accident is caused by improper planning, not an
unexpected fuel loss.


If his actual fuel burn exceeded his planned fuel burn, it would
indicate fuel leaking via one route or another.


Hmmm... that's not what I learned during the cross country phase of my
initial training. I was taught that actual fuel burn exceeding planned
fuel burn is attributed to improper leaning or stronger-than-forecasted
headwinds.

--
Peter


















----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #47  
Old April 29th 05, 04:53 AM
Peter R.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

You ought to try Real Alternative. It'll allow you to play those .ram files
without all the spyware.


Very cool. Thanks!

--
Peter


















----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #48  
Old April 29th 05, 04:55 AM
Dave Stadt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...
Matt Barrow wrote:
Here's just a few:
1) Poor fuel planning and continuing on with low fuel from Michigan

side.
2) Water crossing
3) No floatation devices




If he had pants on, he had floatation gear. Get someone to show you how

to knot
the legs, then inflate the pants by swinging it over your head from above

and
behind you to in front of you in one swift movement. The trapped air will

then
hold you up for quite a while like water wings.... and they can always be
reinflated ad nauseum.

His biggest risk was hypothermia. If he'd only had a light.... I always

carry
a waterproof light with me in my car and when I fly. Always.


At this time of the year neither would have done much good. He probably had
15 minutes at best.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE






  #49  
Old April 29th 05, 04:58 AM
Dave Stadt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...
Peter R. wrote:
Mortimer wrote:

His biggest risk was hypothermia. If he'd only had a light....


A light? As long as we are wishing here, if only he wore a wetsuit and
life preserver equipped with a McMurdo FastFind Plus PLB and a flashing
beacon.



My thought was that a light would stand out like a sore thumb five miles

from
shore in the dark. Him surviving was a function of time; he could swim.


For at best a couple of minutes and probably not even that long. A light
would not necessarialy stand out. Unless you have been there at this time
of the year you have no idea how hostile an environment it is.


  #50  
Old April 29th 05, 04:59 AM
Peter R.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jose wrote:

Granted there probably wasn't enough time, as the plane was already
filling with water...


Furthermore, it appears that the officer at first had a hard time hearing
the pilot and was confused when the pilot stated that he was in "Michigan,
Lake Michigan." It sounded to me like the officer responded by thinking
the pilot was in the state, not in the lake.

--
Peter


















----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Most experienced CFI runs out of gas Robert M. Gary Piloting 54 November 19th 04 02:24 AM
Fuel dump switch in homebuilt Jay Home Built 36 December 5th 03 03:21 AM
Sheepskin seat covers save life. Kevin Owning 21 November 28th 03 11:00 PM
Pumping fuel backwards through an electric fuel pump Greg Reid Home Built 15 October 7th 03 07:09 PM
Hot weather and autogas? Rich S. Home Built 33 July 30th 03 11:25 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.