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Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course



 
 
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  #91  
Old August 4th 20, 03:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer[_2_]
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Posts: 24
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT), Paul B
wrote:

"Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right"

Yes, but only in the last 5 seconds of the flight. Right before he aborted the left hand turn, he was going to land on the strip. That was his plan.


Indeed. And instead of trying to scratch into the field, he chose the
safe option while he was still high and fast enough.


My point is that he should have turned before he reached the freeway. Not necessarily when it was all happening, I am aware of the pressure that he was under.



Even if he had started his turn earlier (in the middle of the downwind
leg) he would not have had the engery to complete it and would have
crashed into the fields south of the runway, still heading toward the
crowd - and the row of parked GA aircraft (and their personnel) in the
South of the runway.

Not to mention that the remaining runway length - if he had been able
to reach the airfield - was very close to the landing distance of a
P-51. Overshooting the runway in a tail dragger and risking a
somersault? Hmmm...


Clear case:
He made the best decision, without a doubt.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field.


Ads
  #92  
Old August 4th 20, 09:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,576
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

Andreas Maurer wrote on 8/3/2020 5:34 PM:
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:40:28 -0700, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

The tighter turn works for gliders after a rope break, so I'm thinking (as did
Paul B), it would work for the P51 pilot.

There is an optimum bank for minimizing the loss of altitude (and he did have some
altitude). Had he turned tighter (about 40 degrees typically), he would have made
it further around the turn than making a wide turn. Yes, initially he would be a
bit lower, but his greater turn rate would more than compensates for that, and he
can get back some of the that altitude when he stops turning and slows down.


Hi Eric,

From the video one can clearly see that his energy is barely enough to
cross the extended center line, including the flare. Definitely not
enough energy to make a turn, not to mention to drop the gear.


Let's do some maths:
When he started the turn to base leg he was between 250 and 350 ft AGL
(depending on his altimeter settings) and 150 mph.

P-51D stall speed clean: 100 mph, hence stall speed at 40 degreed
bank: 114 mph .

So, if he had flown a perfect approach at 120 MPH and 40 degrees of
bank, he would have had a turn diameter of 2305 ft, resulting in a
flight path distance of 3620 ft.

Having an altitude of 350 ft AGL, this would have needed an L/D of
10.3, with 250 ft he would have needed 14.5.

At 175 mph the L/D of the P-51D is 15:1, prop in high pitch. Close to
the stall speed L/D is an estimated 30 percent less, hence 10:1.
Propellor in low pitch will further reduce this number. I found no
numbers on the influence of open cooling flaps.
Let's assume an L/D of 10:1 for now (from the video probably a lot
lower).


Hence, the pilot might have had the chance to complete his turn if all
his factors had been in his favour, but even under these circulstances
he would not have had the energy to extend the gear. He didn't have
the altitude to extend it over the runway after the turn, and
extending it during the turn would have affected his L/D so much that
a crash was unavoidable.


If he had run out of energy (altitude and/or speed) in the last phase
of the turn, he would have definitely crashed, directly in front of
him the M-11 motorway, his flightpath still pointing at the thousands
of spectators. Hardly survivable.



Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right:

Fly the plane to a safe controlled landing instead of trying to get
back to the airfield, risking a probably deadly crash if only the
slightest thing goes wrong.



Two things
- you are supposed to fly the 40 degree turn at the minimum sink speed for that
bank angle, not near stall. So, the L/D would be significantly higher than 10
- I wasn't suggesting the tighter turn would be a better choice, only that it
would get him further around. Your answer may be what Paul B is looking for, as
the person who won

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #93  
Old August 5th 20, 07:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul B[_2_]
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Posts: 59
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

"And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field."

Andreas, you cannot have it both ways, if indeed the engine delivered power for extra four or five seconds AND he turned early, than he would landed without an issue. Instead his plan, up to the time when he straightened to land, was to cross a busy highway twice. Cannot see that as the best decision.
  #94  
Old August 5th 20, 10:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,190
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:47:29 PM UTC-7, Paul B wrote:
"And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field."

Andreas, you cannot have it both ways, if indeed the engine delivered power for extra four or five seconds AND he turned early, than he would landed without an issue. Instead his plan, up to the time when he straightened to land, was to cross a busy highway twice. Cannot see that as the best decision.

Again, I am not questioning what he did, simply saying that he could have addressed his desire to reach the runway of a normal circuit in the briefing. I am sure that not modifying a circuit as appropriate has killed many.


Cheers

Paul




On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 at 12:51:20 am UTC+10, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT), Paul B
wrote:
"Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right"

Yes, but only in the last 5 seconds of the flight. Right before he aborted the left hand turn, he was going to land on the strip. That was his plan.

Indeed. And instead of trying to scratch into the field, he chose the
safe option while he was still high and fast enough.

My point is that he should have turned before he reached the freeway. Not necessarily when it was all happening, I am aware of the pressure that he was under.

Even if he had started his turn earlier (in the middle of the downwind
leg) he would not have had the engery to complete it and would have
crashed into the fields south of the runway, still heading toward the
crowd - and the row of parked GA aircraft (and their personnel) in the
South of the runway.

Not to mention that the remaining runway length - if he had been able
to reach the airfield - was very close to the landing distance of a
P-51. Overshooting the runway in a tail dragger and risking a
somersault? Hmmm...


Clear case:
He made the best decision, without a doubt.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field.


I'm still waiting for anyone to describe just when a P51 has ever been used as a towplane.

Tom
  #95  
Old August 6th 20, 01:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Williams[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 82
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 4:39:42 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:47:29 PM UTC-7, Paul B wrote:
"And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field."

Andreas, you cannot have it both ways, if indeed the engine delivered power for extra four or five seconds AND he turned early, than he would landed without an issue. Instead his plan, up to the time when he straightened to land, was to cross a busy highway twice. Cannot see that as the best decision.

Again, I am not questioning what he did, simply saying that he could have addressed his desire to reach the runway of a normal circuit in the briefing. I am sure that not modifying a circuit as appropriate has killed many..


Cheers

Paul




On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 at 12:51:20 am UTC+10, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT), Paul B
wrote:
"Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right"

Yes, but only in the last 5 seconds of the flight. Right before he aborted the left hand turn, he was going to land on the strip. That was his plan.
Indeed. And instead of trying to scratch into the field, he chose the
safe option while he was still high and fast enough.

My point is that he should have turned before he reached the freeway.. Not necessarily when it was all happening, I am aware of the pressure that he was under.
Even if he had started his turn earlier (in the middle of the downwind
leg) he would not have had the engery to complete it and would have
crashed into the fields south of the runway, still heading toward the
crowd - and the row of parked GA aircraft (and their personnel) in the
South of the runway.

Not to mention that the remaining runway length - if he had been able
to reach the airfield - was very close to the landing distance of a
P-51. Overshooting the runway in a tail dragger and risking a
somersault? Hmmm...


Clear case:
He made the best decision, without a doubt.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field.


I'm still waiting for anyone to describe just when a P51 has ever been used as a towplane.

Tom


On a totally different note;

turd in the punch bowl
n. A person who spoils a pleasant social situation.

This metaphor is powered by a particularly vivid contrast: the inviting sensory appeal of a festive beverage juxtaposed with the revolting suggestion of feculent contagion. Therefore, labeling someone a turd in the punch bowl is most appropriate when the individual's deleterious influence goes beyond mere faux pas or nuisance behaviors, and rises to the level of deliberate offense for its own sake. Consider that the literal act of depositing or excreting fecal matter into a communal food-service container would be sabotage.

The punch bowl and the feces connote certain additional nuances. The former is a symbol of public community, as such dispensers are frequently encountered at parties where they become a focal point for interaction. Freud famously identified feces with aggression and the possessive instinct. Thus a turd in the punch bowl suggests rage toward, and / or the urge to conquer, a community or society as a whole. Defecating into a punch bowl is a very public act, in contrast with poisoning the well or laying an upper decker, which are generally surreptitious. In particular then, to be a turd in the punch bowl is to be a willful and attention-seeking obstructor to the success of a social community.
  #96  
Old August 6th 20, 03:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,190
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:27:54 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 4:39:42 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:47:29 PM UTC-7, Paul B wrote:
"And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field."

Andreas, you cannot have it both ways, if indeed the engine delivered power for extra four or five seconds AND he turned early, than he would landed without an issue. Instead his plan, up to the time when he straightened to land, was to cross a busy highway twice. Cannot see that as the best decision.

Again, I am not questioning what he did, simply saying that he could have addressed his desire to reach the runway of a normal circuit in the briefing. I am sure that not modifying a circuit as appropriate has killed many.


Cheers

Paul




On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 at 12:51:20 am UTC+10, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT), Paul B
wrote:
"Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right"

Yes, but only in the last 5 seconds of the flight. Right before he aborted the left hand turn, he was going to land on the strip. That was his plan.
Indeed. And instead of trying to scratch into the field, he chose the
safe option while he was still high and fast enough.

My point is that he should have turned before he reached the freeway. Not necessarily when it was all happening, I am aware of the pressure that he was under.
Even if he had started his turn earlier (in the middle of the downwind
leg) he would not have had the engery to complete it and would have
crashed into the fields south of the runway, still heading toward the
crowd - and the row of parked GA aircraft (and their personnel) in the
South of the runway.

Not to mention that the remaining runway length - if he had been able
to reach the airfield - was very close to the landing distance of a
P-51. Overshooting the runway in a tail dragger and risking a
somersault? Hmmm...


Clear case:
He made the best decision, without a doubt.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field.


I'm still waiting for anyone to describe just when a P51 has ever been used as a towplane.

Tom


On a totally different note;

turd in the punch bowl
n. A person who spoils a pleasant social situation.

This metaphor is powered by a particularly vivid contrast: the inviting sensory appeal of a festive beverage juxtaposed with the revolting suggestion of feculent contagion. Therefore, labeling someone a turd in the punch bowl is most appropriate when the individual's deleterious influence goes beyond mere faux pas or nuisance behaviors, and rises to the level of deliberate offense for its own sake. Consider that the literal act of depositing or excreting fecal matter into a communal food-service container would be sabotage.

The punch bowl and the feces connote certain additional nuances. The former is a symbol of public community, as such dispensers are frequently encountered at parties where they become a focal point for interaction. Freud famously identified feces with aggression and the possessive instinct. Thus a turd in the punch bowl suggests rage toward, and / or the urge to conquer, a community or society as a whole. Defecating into a punch bowl is a very public act, in contrast with poisoning the well or laying an upper decker, which are generally surreptitious. In particular then, to be a turd in the punch bowl is to be a willful and attention-seeking obstructor to the success of a social community.


You sure seem to fit your own description.
  #97  
Old August 6th 20, 08:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

Paul Bikle was retrieved by a P-51 in his 1-23 many decades ago....
  #98  
Old August 6th 20, 03:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,420
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 2:39:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:47:29 PM UTC-7, Paul B wrote:
"And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field."

Andreas, you cannot have it both ways, if indeed the engine delivered power for extra four or five seconds AND he turned early, than he would landed without an issue. Instead his plan, up to the time when he straightened to land, was to cross a busy highway twice. Cannot see that as the best decision.

Again, I am not questioning what he did, simply saying that he could have addressed his desire to reach the runway of a normal circuit in the briefing. I am sure that not modifying a circuit as appropriate has killed many..


Cheers

Paul




On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 at 12:51:20 am UTC+10, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT), Paul B
wrote:
"Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right"

Yes, but only in the last 5 seconds of the flight. Right before he aborted the left hand turn, he was going to land on the strip. That was his plan.
Indeed. And instead of trying to scratch into the field, he chose the
safe option while he was still high and fast enough.

My point is that he should have turned before he reached the freeway.. Not necessarily when it was all happening, I am aware of the pressure that he was under.
Even if he had started his turn earlier (in the middle of the downwind
leg) he would not have had the engery to complete it and would have
crashed into the fields south of the runway, still heading toward the
crowd - and the row of parked GA aircraft (and their personnel) in the
South of the runway.

Not to mention that the remaining runway length - if he had been able
to reach the airfield - was very close to the landing distance of a
P-51. Overshooting the runway in a tail dragger and risking a
somersault? Hmmm...


Clear case:
He made the best decision, without a doubt.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field.


I'm still waiting for anyone to describe just when a P51 has ever been used as a towplane.

Tom


Tom this discussion has been helpful to point out there is a startle effect in any emergency. I have had multiple in flight emergencies (inflight fire, explosive decompression, throttle cable on twin came undone one short final (never covered that in any training), 90 degree flaps didn't 90 degrees....etc). Each event took a measurable amount of time to understand what was happening and how to respond. This discussion is directly applicable to soaring or any flight activity. This is why we practice 200 ft turn back and say 200 ft outbound on take offs. To lessen the startle effect and to have a plan without thinking. Hangar flying is the thing I miss most about not having a hangar now. Only a fool could not learn from another pilot's actions in an emergency. All soaring pilots are pilots.
  #99  
Old August 6th 20, 04:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,291
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

I couldn't find any information on that.* Could you elaborate?

On 8/6/2020 1:05 AM, wrote:
Paul Bikle was retrieved by a P-51 in his 1-23 many decades ago....


--
Dan, 5J
  #100  
Old August 6th 20, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,190
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:47:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 2:39:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 11:47:29 PM UTC-7, Paul B wrote:
"And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field."

Andreas, you cannot have it both ways, if indeed the engine delivered power for extra four or five seconds AND he turned early, than he would landed without an issue. Instead his plan, up to the time when he straightened to land, was to cross a busy highway twice. Cannot see that as the best decision.

Again, I am not questioning what he did, simply saying that he could have addressed his desire to reach the runway of a normal circuit in the briefing. I am sure that not modifying a circuit as appropriate has killed many.


Cheers

Paul




On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 at 12:51:20 am UTC+10, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT), Paul B
wrote:
"Conclusion:
This landing is a perfect example of getting one's priorities right"

Yes, but only in the last 5 seconds of the flight. Right before he aborted the left hand turn, he was going to land on the strip. That was his plan.
Indeed. And instead of trying to scratch into the field, he chose the
safe option while he was still high and fast enough.

My point is that he should have turned before he reached the freeway. Not necessarily when it was all happening, I am aware of the pressure that he was under.
Even if he had started his turn earlier (in the middle of the downwind
leg) he would not have had the engery to complete it and would have
crashed into the fields south of the runway, still heading toward the
crowd - and the row of parked GA aircraft (and their personnel) in the
South of the runway.

Not to mention that the remaining runway length - if he had been able
to reach the airfield - was very close to the landing distance of a
P-51. Overshooting the runway in a tail dragger and risking a
somersault? Hmmm...


Clear case:
He made the best decision, without a doubt.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
And of course there are a couple of other points to consider - for
example the fact that the engine finally seized up just when he
started his turn to final. If it had delivered power for another four,
five seconds, he would have made it into the field.


I'm still waiting for anyone to describe just when a P51 has ever been used as a towplane.

Tom

Tom this discussion has been helpful to point out there is a startle effect in any emergency. I have had multiple in flight emergencies (inflight fire, explosive decompression, throttle cable on twin came undone one short final (never covered that in any training), 90 degree flaps didn't 90 degrees...etc). Each event took a measurable amount of time to understand what was happening and how to respond. This discussion is directly applicable to soaring or any flight activity. This is why we practice 200 ft turn back and say 200 ft outbound on take offs. To lessen the startle effect and to have a plan without thinking. Hangar flying is the thing I miss most about not having a hangar now. Only a fool could not learn from another pilot's actions in an emergency. All soaring pilots are pilots.


Then start a separate discussion on that topic - don't append it to one that has no bearing on it whatsoever.
 




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