The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 11:45:38 AM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
New paragliding set ups cost as much as a nice 1-26. From what I last heard paragliding wasn't growing much but paramotoring(flying around slowly, not self launching to soar) is growing. Doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, just shows money and time is out there, and no one is using it to come play with us.

I have previously owned a 1-26B, and I more recently purchased my first paragliding setup (wing, harness, reserve, radio, helmet) very slightly used for $3k. Having extensively flown both, I'd personally rather fly the $3k paraglider. Many of us have a warm place in our hearts for vintage gliders, but we tend to over-estimate the appeal to teens.

Paramotoring has been popularized by Youtube, and by Tucker Gott in particular. Folks like Bruno Vassel are a true asset to our sport. How can we get more young people, such as Stefan Langer, to create amazing soaring content? Perhaps the SSA should be nurturing these individuals in some of the same ways that Youtube does.

Also, paramotors make it really easy to go for a flight after work. You don't need to join a club, cut grass, and spend the entire day at the airport. I believe that Americans are increasingly busy, which makes time-intensive activities harder to sell. Perhaps the remarks about motor gliders and online scheduling are correct?

On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!

And we have the same problem in politics. We keep electing the same people over and over, because of their "experience." Where is Cincinnatus when you need him?

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 12:10:44 AM UTC-6, David Shelton wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 9:31:17 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 5:03:57 AM UTC-6, David Shelton wrote:
It is worth noting that paragliding is on the rise in the USA, and it is attracting a younger crowd. At the very least, we should be marketing more to this group. Sometimes I wonder if paragliding is the future of our sport, and not the $150k motor glider.
I am not a risk averse person and believe that persons have the right to participate in activities that enrich their life experience, but I think informed decisions do factor into choices. Currently, paragliding web sites are preaching 'It's safer than driving' because there's a 1/10,000 chance of dying in a car and 1/11,000 chance of dying while paragliding. Since the FAA doesn't track Part103 flight statistics, we're left to 'industry' thinking, I suppose as if death were the only factor. I think if they bothered to discuss the number of broken backs, broken limbs, concussions, and other injuries, it might paint a different picture. Believe me, I don't want more government oversight either. Here in Colorado, the state government has pending legislature to require the ski industry to provide explicit information on injuries and deaths, which is oppose in some quarters. The winter sports realm already divides up the accidents and incidents. For example, if you back country ski and perish in an avalanche, that's not a skiing fatality, that's an avalanche fatality. I haven't skiied in a long time and when I did, people didn't wear helmets. Same applies to snowmobiling. Kind of skews the safety statistics I think. Because I'm involved and interested in the sport of soaring, I've had Google Alerts enabled in my g-mail account for several years to filter for news by gliding, soaring, sailplane, glider, and a few others. Of course, sugar gliders, base units in the commercial truck industry, porch swings, Fortnite, and others get tagged, but it works pretty well. Though I don't look for paragliding or hang-gliding, I still get plenty of alerts about those activities, many times the number of soaring related alerts. Maybe I should try the other filters because maybe some media channels actually do accurately report on paragliding. Several soaring pilots I know came to the sport from hang-gliding, including RAS posters. Many have proved to be excellent sailplane pilots. A few years ago I recall 5 of the top 10 US OLC pilots for a year were these pilots. I don't know if the any of the other five had HG experience in the past. In addition, quite a few local glider pilots have the same background. I haven't surveyed anything, but I only known of one who arrived from paragliding and he took up soaring after breaking a number of bones in a severe paragliding mishap. A lot of young people go rock climbing also. I personally find rocks very unforgiving even for minor errors and if on hits you from above. I've known about three rock climbers personally, one remained unscathed and major in avalanche studies, another came home one evening with a big scrap and goose egg on his forehead and no skin on his knuckles (he moved on to HG , set at least one world record, and hosts a well-known HG web site, http://ozreport..com/), and one had a large 300lb boulder peeled her from the rocks in a 30ft rope drop and ended up losing motion in a smashed finger, suffered a concussion and had an ankle injury. She was lucky to have survived and it had nothing to do with her skill and ability. I hope a number of these young people will both survive and find their way to soaring and many HG pilots have done.
FWIW, Dr. Dan shared this on his FB page recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj7sjJi6zJ4
Paragliding is certainly more dangerous than sailplanes, but plenty of people rightfully think that sailplane pilots are crazy. Both activities are extreme sports compared to the average persons risk tolerance.

Hang gliding is on a swift decline, and has largely been replaced by paragliding. Unless they figure out how to fit a hang glider into a backpack, I don't think the sport will ever thrive again. I also know a few former hang gliders that transitioned into sailplanes. Now that paragliders out-number hang gliders 2:1 in the US, I expect they will be providing more of the sailplane recruits from now on. I believe the model airplane industry is also thriving. The question is... how do you market to them?

These days, the best way to sell anything involves building marketing funnels, customized landing pages, targeted Google ads, social media campaigns, search engine optimization, etc. As an aging group, I'm afraid we aren't the most competitive bunch in the digital space, which is where potential young recruits spend so much time. It might be a good idea for soaring clubs to solicite a professional SEO audit, and to put more effort into implementing the resulting suggestions.

Regarding cost... rising cost certainly does make it harder to grow the sport. However, I've instructed several privileged youth; the parents completely funded their flying expenses. Even with unlimited financial resources, my experience is that it is getting harder to get teens to read books or study. They have a million things competing for their time. Learning to fly doesn't doesn't always compete with video games or Youtube. I honestly don't know how to overcome this part of the problem.
I agree that HG has issues though the rigid wings were a vast improvement in safety and performance. I agree all are air sports with degrees of extreme. The AMA, like the EAA, and SSA have pretty high average age memberships. A few years ago, EAA said it was 64. SSA took a guess at 57 about 105years ago. Probably more like EAA now. AMA was similar, but their engagement with drones may have skewed this in the past 5-6 years. There are 129,000 student pilots without medicals in the FAA releasable data. A small percentage may be glider students, but a large number are undoubtedly signed up for a drone rating. My last pull listed over 96,000 U/SUAS drone only ratings. EAA is also showing interest there. There are also quite a few Student Pilots with lapsed medicals, which means they didn't achieve their goal, which the AOPA survey a few years ago elaborated on. I don't see any of these as low hanging fruit and of course there's no Part103 ratings.

On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!

There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:33:16 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!
There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.

Calm down, darling. We wouldn't want you to get your knickers in a twist, would we now?

Nobody is whinging, we're discussing the decline of gliding, hence the title of the thread. Some of the points raised are often not considered.

Maybe we should hope that the sun comes out to let us all forget about how quickly our sport is dying?

Toot toot.

On Tuesday, 20 April 2021 at 10:04:10 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:33:16 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!
There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.
Calm down, darling. We wouldn't want you to get your knickers in a twist, would we now?

Nobody is whinging, we're discussing the decline of gliding, hence the title of the thread. Some of the points raised are often not considered.

Maybe we should hope that the sun comes out to let us all forget about how quickly our sport is dying?

Toot toot.

You, plus a group of multiple IDs on an equivalent forum in the UK, keep putting this proposition that gliding is declining, or that the people at the top are out of touch.

Although there may be slightly fewer people involved overall, it is also quite possible that more people are doing proportionately more actual flying.

Especially with the very good (if sometimes quite cold i.e minus 8 deg C at cloudbase) weather in the UK recently

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 2:13:48 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Tuesday, 20 April 2021 at 10:04:10 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:33:16 PM UTC+1, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 19 April 2021 at 13:56:11 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 10:59:37 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Well said.

Equally to the point, a CLUB is run by and for its members, so there
should be no difference between 'da yoof' and us old buggers when it
comes to helping to run it. This something that should involve all
members, regardless of age or sex. The only exceptions should apply to
roles that need specific qualifications and/or training, i.e.
instructors, tug pilots, winch drivers and launch marshals.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Part of the problem is that many clubs have this ridiculous notion of "experience": somebody is only ready to serve on committee or contribute in some greater way when they have enough "experience".

But what exactly do the old blokes mean when they talk about "experience"?

Does one need to have gained 3 diamonds before they have enough experience to contribute to the club's marketing efforts?
Do hours in the air correlate with your ability to make financial decisions effecting the future of the club?
Does time standing around at the launch-point determine your ability to make the club relevant to the next generation?

The dogma peddled by old glider pilots the world over is basically that unless you've stood around a lot gassing at the launch-point, you couldn't possibly know anything about how to run a gliding operation.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why gliding is in decline; many of the people who are directing gliding haven't the skills necessary to direct and market gliding, and yet they are convinced that they are the best people for the job!
There seems to be more dogma in your repetition of this rather cliched or stereotypical portrayal.

People aren't hanging around gassing at the launch point. They are getting ready to fly a glider, or a tug, or drive the winch, or helping hook on, or fetching landed gliders back for their next launch. In the recent era of Covid there may have been slight shortages of helpers from time to time, and the folk near the back of the grid might need a friendly reminder to help with the launch.

Whingeing like this generally happens when there isn't enough flying. Some people at our club have done 500 km every day for a week, so they arent complaining.That's what the sport is about, not your system of booked slots, which can already be used for training, but isn't appropriate for getting the best out of the day's soaring weather.
Calm down, darling. We wouldn't want you to get your knickers in a twist, would we now?

Nobody is whinging, we're discussing the decline of gliding, hence the title of the thread. Some of the points raised are often not considered.

Maybe we should hope that the sun comes out to let us all forget about how quickly our sport is dying?

Toot toot.
You, plus a group of multiple IDs on an equivalent forum in the UK, keep putting this proposition that gliding is declining, or that the people at the top are out of touch.

Although there may be slightly fewer people involved overall, it is also quite possible that more people are doing proportionately more actual flying.

Especially with the very good (if sometimes quite cold i.e minus 8 deg C at cloudbase) weather in the UK recently

The conversation regarding gliding being in decline is a discussion that has been ongoing within the UK gliding community. It is an issue that has resulted in a lot of arguments and finger-pointing online, you're right.
There is no need to drag this thread down that path, thank you.

I do not recall anybody suggesting that "the people at the top" are out of touch. Rather, the people at club and national level in the UK seem to react poorly to the conversation about the decline of gliding simply because the conversation inevitably leads on to an examination of who is in a position to do something....which inevitably leads on to how good a job are they doing....

Gliding being a sport in decline is something that is generally accepted the world over. Are you suggesting that in fact gliding is not in decline as a sport?

It doesn't need to be this way. In the midst of a pandemic, Sandhill Soaring Club (located in S.E. Michigan) has grown from 70 to about 90 members in the course of a couple of years. We largely attribute this to upgrading the fleet, having a regular presence on social media and a decent website that attracts customers and informs prospects and members of pertinent information (i.e. dues, rates, aircraft operating manuals, weight and balance and performance specs, club handbooks, club rules, currency sheets, safety resources, etc), and the contributions of about 20 active members (volunteers) who make it possible for new students to join the club and learn to fly gliders. Our fleet includes two (2) G-103, one (1) DG-505, and an Open Cirrus, as well as other basic trainers and a Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider. Presently, students can learn to winch and get a self-launch endorsement at Sandhill.. Those getting their private pilots licenses are starting to receive advanced soaring instruction in our DG-505. In fact two CFIG flew cross-country for the first time at the Seniors with the club's Chief Flight Instructor and are presently learning how to use TopHat/XCSoar as a cross-country navigational aid and are actively working on getting their Silver and Gold badges. Student pilots (post solo) are now being encouraged to participate in the ABC Bronze Badge Program and get their 5 hr duration and 1,000m gain in preparation for conducting their first xc distance flights.

The key to retaining members is having good instructor feedback (this assumes you use a syllabus and your CFIGs have good rapport with the clubs student pilots), and being able to meet the needs of both new and existing members. I also recommend having regular social functions (potlucks, BBQs, etc), which IMHO clubs should do once the bulk of their membership have been vaccinated for Covid-19.

Clubs also need strong leadership... clubs suffer from political infighting.. Clubs need a vision and a purpose, and then they need to do their best to fulfill that purpose. Don't get me wrong, Sandhill makes a lot of mistakes and has lost more than its fare share of stuBe the dent and existing members to indifference and to put it plainly not being able to meet the needs of its members, but all in all the club is enjoying healthy membership levels and will continue to grow at a sustainable pace. Hopefully yours does too..

Just my 2 cents.

- Chris Schrader "I fly CN mostly"
Vice President of Sandhill Soaring Club

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 1:45:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:
It doesn't need to be this way. In the midst of a pandemic, Sandhill Soaring Club (located in S.E. Michigan) has grown from 70 to about 90 members in the course of a couple of years. We largely attribute this to upgrading the fleet, having a regular presence on social media and a decent website that attracts customers and informs prospects and members of pertinent information (i.e. dues, rates, aircraft operating manuals, weight and balance and performance specs, club handbooks, club rules, currency sheets, safety resources, etc), and the contributions of about 20 active members (volunteers) who make it possible for new students to join the club and learn to fly gliders. Our fleet includes two (2) G-103, one (1) DG-505, and an Open Cirrus, as well as other basic trainers and a Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider. Presently, students can learn to winch and get a self-launch endorsement at Sandhill. Those getting their private pilots licenses are starting to receive advanced soaring instruction in our DG-505. In fact two CFIG flew cross-country for the first time at the Seniors with the club's Chief Flight Instructor and are presently learning how to use TopHat/XCSoar as a cross-country navigational aid and are actively working on getting their Silver and Gold badges. Student pilots (post solo) are now being encouraged to participate in the ABC Bronze Badge Program and get their 5 hr duration and 1,000m gain in preparation for conducting their first xc distance flights.

The key to retaining members is having good instructor feedback (this assumes you use a syllabus and your CFIGs have good rapport with the clubs student pilots), and being able to meet the needs of both new and existing members. I also recommend having regular social functions (potlucks, BBQs, etc), which IMHO clubs should do once the bulk of their membership have been vaccinated for Covid-19.

Clubs also need strong leadership... clubs suffer from political infighting. Clubs need a vision and a purpose, and then they need to do their best to fulfill that purpose. Don't get me wrong, Sandhill makes a lot of mistakes and has lost more than its fare share of stuBe the dent and existing members to indifference and to put it plainly not being able to meet the needs of its members, but all in all the club is enjoying healthy membership levels and will continue to grow at a sustainable pace. Hopefully yours does too.

Just my 2 cents.

- Chris Schrader "I fly CN mostly"
Vice President of Sandhill Soaring Club
It was a privilege for me to fly at Sandhill and meet some of the members.

Let me say that "requiring" a 5-hour flight BEFORE flying cross-country seems pretty punishing and could push people away. Did my 5-hour on my first - and failed - Gold distance claim.

That being said, congratulations on your success!