Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Alexey Goldin wrote: The same message twice.

You are using google groups to post aren't you? Trust you first click.

Paul kgyy wrote:
When flying IFR with jet aircraft, the pilot has little discretion
unless specifically given by ATC.

Jets are given pilot discretion clearance whenever possible. It is not
a rare event.

A usual transmission is, United xxx, descend to 15000, and that's what
you do. On rare occasion, it may be a little looser, United xxx
descent at pilot's discretion, cross intersection xyz at 15000.

You have that a bit wrong. If a crossing restriction is included a
pilot's discretion descent is implied.

AIM Reference:

If the altitude information of an ATC DESCENT clearance includes a
provision to “CROSS (fix) AT” or “AT OR ABOVE/BELOW (altitude),” the
manner in which the descent is executed to comply with the crossing
altitude is at the pilot’s discretion. This authorization to descend at
pilot’s discretion is only applicable to that portion of the flight to
which the crossing altitude restriction applies, and the pilot is
expected to comply with the crossing altitude as a provision of the
clearance. Any other clearance in which pilot execution is optional will
so state “AT PILOT’S DISCRETION.”



If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

If someone has to ride United Airlines to learn about ATC transmissions,
the pain isn't worth the gain.

B A R R Y wrote:

Paul kgyy wrote:


If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.


A cheaper way is check this out:
http://www.liveatc.net/


I'd add the caveat that the value of listening to tower or TRACON,
although, great, does not give the flavor of listening to center sectors
adjacent to busy terminal airspace. For instance, all the descent stuff
that might include PD clearances will occur on Los Angeles Center
frequenices, high and low sectors, not on SoCal frequencies.

Sorry :-) Will be more careful next time.


Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Alexey Goldin wrote: The same message twice.

You are using google groups to post aren't you? Trust you first click.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Newps writes:


It changes flight path, like he said, you dumb****.


The rudder rotates the aircraft about its yaw axis, in both simulation
and real flight. Whether or not this changes the flight path depends
on a number of factors.


You get dumber everyday.

Mxsmanic wrote:


Uh, gee, Einstein, a real rudder DOES control flight path.


Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

There is never a case where it doesn't change flight path.

Mxsmanic wrote:

BDS writes:


Staying within the context of this discussion vis-a-vis rudder input alone
and your statement above, can you describe when it does and does not affect
flight path and in which aircraft this is true? What are the number of
different effects it can have and what situations do they occur in.


There are many different possibilities. In the experiment suggested
to me, I held the wings level (via the autolevel function of the
autopilot), applied full right rudder, and the aircraft yawed and
gradually changed heading. The ground track was a segment of a circle
(depending on how long I held the rudder). Supposedly MSFS can't do
this, but it did.

Adjusting the rudder yaws the aircraft. In ordinary level flight,
this will tend to cause the aircraft to enter a turn. The asymmetric
lift resulting from the yaw will tend to push the aircraft into a bank
in the same direction as the rudder is turning the aircraft, and
aerodynamic forces on the rest of the aircraft will assist this.

The rudder can also be used to compensate for other forces acting
about the yaw axis. It can be used to compensate for crosswinds or
engine torque. It can be used to establish and maintain coordinated
turns. And so on.



You still haven't listed one time when the rudder does not change flight
path.

Sam Spade wrote:

I'd add the caveat that the value of listening to tower or TRACON,
although, great, does not give the flavor of listening to center sectors
adjacent to busy terminal airspace. For instance, all the descent stuff
that might include PD clearances will occur on Los Angeles Center
frequenices, high and low sectors, not on SoCal frequencies.

Not sure if you are assuming that LiveATC.net only carries tower or TRACON
frequencies or not, but in case you a LiveATC.net also carries many
centner frequencies.

As an example, LiveATC.net has many Boston and NY center frequencies.

Another point is that LiveATC is made up of volunteers providing scanned
frequencies. There are not a lot of western US frequencies on the site due
simply to the lack of volunteers offering them. If you know anyone...


--
Peter
A LiveATC volunteer feeding KSYR tower and approach.

Peter R. wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


I'd add the caveat that the value of listening to tower or TRACON,
although, great, does not give the flavor of listening to center sectors
adjacent to busy terminal airspace. For instance, all the descent stuff
that might include PD clearances will occur on Los Angeles Center
frequenices, high and low sectors, not on SoCal frequencies.


Not sure if you are assuming that LiveATC.net only carries tower or TRACON
frequencies or not, but in case you a LiveATC.net also carries many
centner frequencies.

As an example, LiveATC.net has many Boston and NY center frequencies.

Another point is that LiveATC is made up of volunteers providing scanned
frequencies. There are not a lot of western US frequencies on the site due
simply to the lack of volunteers offering them. If you know anyone...


I missed the center frequencies. To get a good flavor of the east high
and low LA frequenices you would need a volunteer in Barstow and one
somewhere in the Ontario area. ;-)

Newps wrote:



Mxsmanic wrote:


Uh, gee, Einstein, a real rudder DOES control flight path.



Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.


There is never a case where it doesn't change flight path.

Not so. When an engine fails on a multi, a lot of rudder is required.
Skillfully done, the application of a lot of rudder is mandatory to
maintain the desired flight path.