Flaps on take-off and landing

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Dave Doe writes:

Please define extremely expensive.

More expensive than a car.


There are plenty of aircraft that cost less than cars.


Here in NZ, it costs a couple hundred to get a medical, and say $150/hr
to fly a plane ("wet" cost, ie you don't pay extra for fuel etc).

Last month I cleared $647.



But not that much less. You need to spend your time on something more
profitable than Flight Sims and trolling newsgroups.

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Oh, and flying 100 hours per year is A LOT for most recreational
pilots.

Yeah, that would be around two hours every weekend, which is way more
than my schedule would permit, at least now. I might consider it if I
win the lottery/sell my screenplay/inherit those oil wells...

Marc

Mxsmanic wrote:
[ Regarding aircraft "normal" category asked: ]
The FAA publishes a lot of documentation. Which document did you have
in mind?

Part 23 of the U.S. Federal Aviation Regulations contains the
definition. It's online; here's the specific paragraphs:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...1.59.3&idno=14

Jim Logajan writes:

Mxsmanic wrote:
[ Regarding aircraft "normal" category asked: ]
The FAA publishes a lot of documentation. Which document did you have
in mind?

Part 23 of the U.S. Federal Aviation Regulations contains the
definition. It's online; here's the specific paragraphs:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...1.59.3&idno=14

Thanks. It looks like their definition pretty much matches mine,
especially the "nonacrobatic operation" part.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:00:03 +0200, Thomas Borchert
wrote in
:

Larry,

The majority of Parisians do not own automobiles.



Got a source for that?

No. I attempted to find relevant statistics, but was unsuccessful.

The city sure gives a different impression.

The roads are congested with traffic, but consider, where would
metropolitan Parisians garage their automobiles?

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:24:45 +0200, Thomas Borchert
wrote:

Mxsmanic,

I sorely miss the days when you could
go to the airport and walk up to the roof or observation deck to watch
planes take off and arrive.


And I'm sure you can quote a substantial number of airports that have
closed their observation decks? No? Thought so...

MBS which is a relatively small feeder airport (Towerd class D 6 AM to
Midnight)


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:53:16 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I love airplanes and we are on the centerline for the GPS 06 approach
to 3BS and about a mile and a half in from the FAF. Even when working
in the shop I still have to run outside to see what's going over.

I like to watch aircraft, too. I sorely miss the days when you could
go to the airport and walk up to the roof or observation deck to watch
planes take off and arrive. Nowadays, it seems you're a terrorist if
you manifest any interest in aircraft. I never understood what danger
there was in letting people watch. Even people who take pictures from
outside the airport are considered terrorists these days.

On landing I generally run 10 down wind.15 to 20 on base, and about 30
until the runway is made and then it's full flaps whether it's windy
of calm, gusty or steady. The only time I don't use full flaps is the
one or two landings I do every few weeks with no flaps.

Why do you do those landings without flaps?

Practice for the "just-in-case" situation. Flap actuators have been
known to fail. The Deb and Bonanzas have decidedly different landing
characteristics between those big barn door flaps at 40 degrees and
nothing. With full flaps it's a very good short field plane. With no
flaps, it floats and floats and floats in a very nose high attitude if
you wish to touch down at a reasonable speed. Typically with no flaps
I'm looking straight ahead at the center of the instrument panel with
the only forward view being sky. The only view of the runway is in the
forward bottom corners of the front side windows so I can see the
edges of the runway or runway lights. With full flaps the forward
view is very good.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:50:27 -0400, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Marty Shapiro wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote in
:


Marty Shapiro writes:


The IRS allows 47.5 cents/mile as the cost to operate a car if its
use is tax deductible.

You use IRS figures for the car, but not for the plane. How much does
the IRS allow for operating a plane instead of a car?



I've never found a direct answer for the IRS allowance for private air
travel. Whenever I rent an aircraft for an Angel Flight, I get to deduct
the entire cost of the rental.


Found the Federal reimbursements.

Margy

For private use of non federal aircraft when I was looking into some
commuting they had several "it depends".

If I were flying my plane to a seminar held for the company I worked
for it wasn't a lot more than cars and back then that wasn't much.
OTOH IF I rented I could deduct the entire cost as long as it didn't
exceed a non discount coach class airfare between the same two
locations.

If I were self employed and using my own plane (consulting) it was
actual cost not to exceed the non discount coach class airfare.
That makes the TBM-700 a bit rich for traveling between sites with
just one person.

The Deb can come just shy of the non discount airfare.
With two in it I'm way ahead of the game.

OTOH the company I worked for prohibited employees flying their own
airplanes on company business. I took a lot of vacations the day
before and the day after a number of schools and seminars. Still,
when I retired they owed me over 90 days of vacation.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:30:24 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Margy Natalie writes:

If you want to fly in a tin can go commercial. Why would I want to ride
in a Greyhound bus when I can drive my Audi?

That doesn't answer my question. How much would it cost to rent a 737
instead of a tiny plastic plane? Just because you prefer a tiny plane
for your leisure doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

Wellll... At an operating cost that ranges from $11 to $24 per mile
puts the ball park operating cost per hour between $5,500 and $12,000
per hour under airline conditions which are probably going to be the
most efficient as they spend most of their time at altitude. Stay
below 10,000 feet and it'd probably run 50 to 100% more per hour.
BTW in 2001 when fuel was a *lot* cheaper the fuel cost per mile of a
first generation 737 was about as much as the total operating cost of
the latest models.

In reality, I don't know of any practical way to fly large jets in
real life for pleasure. Even John Travolta doesn't seem to get around
much in his 707, and it's a crusty old airframe compared to the modern

That 707 is probably more expensive to operate than the above figures
for the 737. On top of that figure the cost per hour goes up
astronomically if the plane isn't flying most of the time.

None of the big iron, that I know of, is single pilot certified.
So to fly one you are going to need to get type certified and take
recurrency training twice a year. On top of that the best you might do
would be to lease one complete with a pilot and copilot.

Based on what I can find, as an individual you might be able to come
up with a 737 for around $15,000 to $20,000 per hour if you are lucky.

aircraft that some of us might prefer to fly (I'm sure he had to
compromise, as I don't think he really prefers the 707 to more recent
equipment).

You can purchase some old airplanes for not much more than scrap
prices, BUT that is still many hundreds of thousands of dollars if not
past the million mark. It's the same reason you can purchase older
piston twins for quite reasonable prices and then find out you can't
afford to fly them.

Look at the differences in maintenance costs between the first
generation 737s (Bout $2.40 per seat per mile) and the latest which I
think was about 70 cents per seat mile.

http://www.unisys.com/transportation...sightsID=88374
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:41:39 -0400, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
Margy Natalie writes:


If you want to fly in a tin can go commercial. Why would I want to ride
in a Greyhound bus when I can drive my Audi?


That doesn't answer my question. How much would it cost to rent a 737
instead of a tiny plastic plane? Just because you prefer a tiny plane
for your leisure doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

In reality, I don't know of any practical way to fly large jets in
real life for pleasure. Even John Travolta doesn't seem to get around
much in his 707, and it's a crusty old airframe compared to the modern
aircraft that some of us might prefer to fly (I'm sure he had to
compromise, as I don't think he really prefers the 707 to more recent
equipment).

That's the same as saying I can't afford to own a car because who would
want a POS Audi when a Rolls is really the only choice! You seem to
want everyone to think flying is only for the rich and famous, when in
reality it's for anyone who wants to make it a reality. No, you can't
have a 747, but you can't have a Rolls either. If you drive a ****box
you might have to fly an ultra-light, if you have the Rolls you might
have a G-4. Who would want a 747, they are old and big and lumber
through the skies. BTW Travolta used to have a Connie, now that was a
cool plane.

Amen!

We were taking off from Detroit metro with a Connie rolling out in
front of us and a 707 on short final. We went over the Connie as it
turned off and the 707 rolled past under us. That sure was a pretty
sight. (Things were a bit different back in those days):-))



Margy
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com