A Call to Arms from Richard VanGrunsven

On Mar 7, 12:07 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
...

Right. Unless it can be demonstrated that such intrusion is
reasonable and Constitutionally implemented, it's abuse of power, IMO.

Given how hard it would be to make a plane using only intrastate
materials, and how easy it is to fly one accross state borders,
and especially in view of other rulings on what constitutes
'interstate
commerce' there is little doubt that the courts would uphold
jurisdiction
based on the ICC.

That doesn't mean it isn't an abuse of power.


I also agree that the 51% policy seems to contain at least an element of
protectionism for manufacturers.

IIRC before there was a 51% rule, there was a time during which
homebuilts were not allowed at all. The original intent would seem
to have been to protect homebuilding, regardless of what it has
become today.

--

FF

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:34:25 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

So, if someone builds a BD% on commision for you you think that's
safer
than a 172?

That's what we're talking about.

Bertie

Don't know, I am going on the testimony of others that say that they
are.
Of course, the FAA certainly would no tallow unsafe planes in the air.

Would they?

Yeah, of course. They do it all the time. There are a few BD5s flying (
that was a typo) and they are most definitely quite dangerous. There are
a few other contraptions flying around that have some serious issues
structuarally, aerodynamically, etc. There's one particular type which
is quite popular in my local group that fortunately never seems to get
finished. The accident reports are littered with these things and I'm
terrified that one of the members is going to ask me to test fly theirs
for them. (think 180 mph VW)

Bertie

Then who'se to say the Skywalker, for instance, certified to the hilt, is
safe? Aren't we back to Square One? FAA certification means exactly what?A
higher possibility of a safe aircraft?
--
I would also add that certification also implies a degree of
mainatainability (if that is a real word) as well as fitness for a fairly
wide range of applications.

Basically, Part 23 is a set of generally accepted engineering standards; and
I agree with Bertie that the RV series appear to be quite capable of being
certified.

Peter
(Who's own doodles usually trade away one or more of those standards)

"Acepilot" wrote in message
.. .
What is a "Pro Built"? I would take it to mean that an experimental "kit"
was built by somebody like Cessna or Piper, etc. As an amateur builder,
am I a "novice" when I complete it? Will I turn pro after I finish a
second one? I'd tend to say that an airplane built by Joe Blow for
somebody else is still amateur built, but the owner who applies for the
repairman certificate should not be able to get it if they themselves did
not build 51%.

Scott



That is a reasonable question Scott. The traditional answer, that the FAA
has used for many years, was the magic number 'three.'

If you build the same design once or twice you are learning and still an
"amateur" building for "educational" purposes. After the third one, they
figure you have learned, and are now building for monetary purposes.

The type certification process was originally established to protect people
who bought airplanes built by some small company. Some built fine flyable
and safe airplanes and some did not. The ones who did not could not get
their products through the certification process. Certification requires
design review to accepted and published standards for most aspects of the
design, including the flyability and handling qualities.

Experimental amateur built airplanes, including kits, are not subject to
this type of review. I have flown some homebuilt aircraft that I would only
characterize as downright dangerous. I have flown others that meet or
exceed the requirements for certification in every way. The average is, as
you would expect, somewhere between those two extremes.

When you allow "professional builders" of "homebuilt" airplanes and allow
them to be licensed as "amateur built" it seems to be somewhat outside the
intent of the original legislation. It also avoids the certification
process which was established for the safety and protection of airplane
buyers. This was one of the primary reasons for establishing the CAA, which
later became the FAA.

Highflyer
PS: its flyin time ...
2008 Pinckneyville Rec Aviation Flyin

The annual flyin time is coming around again! I finally got to where I
could find things in the hangar again, which is a sure indication that it is
time to start flyin preparations!

The local motels will be filling up fast again so you may want to get your
reservations in as soon as you can if you want a close motel room.

WHEN: May 16, 17, and 18 this year. Once again, it is the full weekend
prior to the Memorial Day official weekend. This has become the traditional
historical date for the flyin. It allows folks to plan well ahead to this
incredible trek. For many it becomes the cross country trip that they talk
about to everyone that will hold still long enough to listen.

WHE Pinckneyville DuQuoin Airport, Pinckneyville, Illinois. PJY is the
airport identifier. Put K in front if you have a fussy GPS. We are about
80 miles southeast of the Arch in St. Louis. There is a 4001 foot ( have to
be over 4000 feet for jets! ) north-south runway ( 18L – 36R ) with an 1800
foot grass runway parallel to the northern half.
( 18R – 36L ) . There is no taxiway. This an access taxiway perpendicular
to the runways. We do have instrument approachs again, but they are GPS
approachs only.

WHAT: The annual t here day get together of the diehards on the
rec.aviation newsgroups. Buddy rides all day and hangar flying all night.
Other entertainment as happens. Beer, soda, and good food. The PJY
barbeque is world renowned, as are the uniquely HOT Italian sausages served
on Thursday night. The Red Lady should be flying this year.

WHO: Pilots, about to be Pilots, wannabe Pilots, and anybody else who is
willing to put up with a bunch of wild eyed folks who talk about airplanes
and flying all day and all night.

COST: This is not one of those “break the bank” flyins. Highflyer and Mary
try to keep the costs in line so that we can have a good time without being
rich. We do that because a lot of people who come to the flyin own
airplanes. We all know that people who own an airplane are not rich
anymore! We try to collect $25 from everyone to defray the cost of the
beverages and the groceries. We do breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day.
Usually we have baby back ribs, steak, and chicken on Saturday night.
Friday night we have something good. No one goes hungry. We do have
something for vegetarians.

ACCOMODATIONS: Pitch a tent next to your airplane if you like. There is no
charge for camping on the field. We have a couple of bathrooms, but no
showers. Generally, if someone really would like to shower one of the folks
in a motel can help you out. We do have a garden hose. There are places
you can park a camper or motorhome near the action. If you are really nice,
we can even run you out an extension cord for an electrical hookup. No
sewer hookups though.

If you want a motel there are several in the area now. The preferred flyin
motel is the Mainstreet Inn, in Pinckneyville. The lady who runs it always
puts up with our group graciously. One year she even shortsheeted every bed
in the place, for a small bribe!
Her phone number is 618-357-2128. The rates are quite reasonable.

A little fancier is the local Oxbow Bed and Breakfast. This is between the
airport and town, right on the edge of town. A number of our folks stay
there every year they come and speak very highly of the establishment.
Their phone number is 618-357-9839.

We always manage to arrange some kind of transportation to and from both of
these places. If they are full there are other motels in the area and
transportation can usually be managed with no particular problems.

HOW: Flying to PJY is the primo way to arrive. If that doesn’t work many
fly commercial to St. Louis and rent a car for the last 90 miles from the
airport. Whatever works for you works for us! Pinckneyville airport is
right on Illinois 127 just six miles south of the town of Pinckneyville.
Route 127 is exit 50 off of I-64. The airport is about 30 miles south of
I-64.

Please send an email to Mary at so that she can get some
idea how many steaks to buy for Saturday night dinner! It makes it a lot
easier when we have some idea of how many people to plan for meals.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2008 10:36:39 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote in
:

I have a business associate that bought a "pro-built" RV7. While he was
flying home X-C the plane lost power and he safely landed in a field. He
got the farmer who owned the land to tow him over beside the barn and
then found and A&P to come out and see if he could fix the problem.

The logs showed the plane had flown the 40 hours to get out of phase 1
testing. That A&P and another that looked at it later both felt after
looking at the plane that there was no way this plane had been flown
more than five or six hours.

When the buyer looked further at the log book entries he realized that
the that a date had been changed and that there was only, originally 3
days between the beginning and the end of the phase 1 testing.

He got his money back in the deal after his lawyer made it very clear
that there would either be a wire in the buyers account that day or a
call would be made to the FAA.

Perhaps a prudent purchaser would consider it a good idea to have an
A&P look at the aircraft and logs BEFOFE the purchase.


The problem that developed and caused the engine failure may or may not
have been found by A&P. The log book entry would probably not have been
noticed in a hanger.

The point is though was that this was purchased from an A&P that was
building under the Exp-HB rules buy a buyer that thought that meant he was
getting a well constructed aircraft that had been properly built and
tested.

I think there is a saying about when two fools meet ...

Highflyer

It would be very interesting for someone to be charged with operating an
illegally built aircraft. How would this be challenged in the courts?

It has happened. They merely pull the licenses of both the airplane and the
pilot. :-)

Highflyer

"Blueskies" wrote in message
t...

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...

It would be very interesting for someone to be charged with operating an
illegally built aircraft. How would this be
challenged in the courts?

I don't think they'd be charged with operating an illegally-built
aircraft, but
if they applied for the Repairman Certificate, they could be charged with
perjury.

In any case, the FAA could just cancel the plane's airworthiness
certificate,
and the person who bought it from the hired gun would be out the
~$50K-$250K he
paid for it.

Ron Wanttaja

Just because the FAA cancels the airworthiness certificate doesn't make
the aircraft any more or less 'airworthy'.

Have you seen the justification presented to re-register aircraft every 3
years? Looks like the FAA can't enforce current regulations. So they write
more?

I seem to remember it costs something like 10 million to certify a 'car'
to run on roads in the US of A. The cost to certify an aircraft is insane.
There needs to be a middle ground where a sound safe design can be
produced (built) without the muda and hindrances of our govment.

The call it "Light Sport" and the certification is done by the manufacturer
to standards agreed upon by the industry and accepted and recorded by the
ASTM.

Unfortunately, it does not guarantee a "sound safe design" will be produced.
However, a "sound safe design" MAY be produced by the process.

Highflyer

PS: its flyin time
2008 Pinckneyville Rec Aviation Flyin

The annual flyin time is coming around again! I finally got to where I
could find things in the hangar again, which is a sure indication that it is
time to start flyin preparations!

The local motels will be filling up fast again so you may want to get your
reservations in as soon as you can if you want a close motel room.

WHEN: May 16, 17, and 18 this year. Once again, it is the full weekend
prior to the Memorial Day official weekend. This has become the traditional
historical date for the flyin. It allows folks to plan well ahead to this
incredible trek. For many it becomes the cross country trip that they talk
about to everyone that will hold still long enough to listen.

WHE Pinckneyville DuQuoin Airport, Pinckneyville, Illinois. PJY is the
airport identifier. Put K in front if you have a fussy GPS. We are about
80 miles southeast of the Arch in St. Louis. There is a 4001 foot ( have to
be over 4000 feet for jets! ) north-south runway ( 18L – 36R ) with an 1800
foot grass runway parallel to the northern half.
( 18R – 36L ) . There is no taxiway. This an access taxiway perpendicular
to the runways. We do have instrument approachs again, but they are GPS
approachs only.

WHAT: The annual t here day get together of the diehards on the
rec.aviation newsgroups. Buddy rides all day and hangar flying all night.
Other entertainment as happens. Beer, soda, and good food. The PJY
barbeque is world renowned, as are the uniquely HOT Italian sausages served
on Thursday night. The Red Lady should be flying this year.

WHO: Pilots, about to be Pilots, wannabe Pilots, and anybody else who is
willing to put up with a bunch of wild eyed folks who talk about airplanes
and flying all day and all night.

COST: This is not one of those “break the bank” flyins. Highflyer and Mary
try to keep the costs in line so that we can have a good time without being
rich. We do that because a lot of people who come to the flyin own
airplanes. We all know that people who own an airplane are not rich
anymore! We try to collect $25 from everyone to defray the cost of the
beverages and the groceries. We do breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day.
Usually we have baby back ribs, steak, and chicken on Saturday night.
Friday night we have something good. No one goes hungry. We do have
something for vegetarians.

ACCOMODATIONS: Pitch a tent next to your airplane if you like. There is no
charge for camping on the field. We have a couple of bathrooms, but no
showers. Generally, if someone really would like to shower one of the folks
in a motel can help you out. We do have a garden hose. There are places
you can park a camper or motorhome near the action. If you are really nice,
we can even run you out an extension cord for an electrical hookup. No
sewer hookups though.

If you want a motel there are several in the area now. The preferred flyin
motel is the Mainstreet Inn, in Pinckneyville. The lady who runs it always
puts up with our group graciously. One year she even shortsheeted every bed
in the place, for a small bribe!
Her phone number is 618-357-2128. The rates are quite reasonable.

A little fancier is the local Oxbow Bed and Breakfast. This is between the
airport and town, right on the edge of town. A number of our folks stay
there every year they come and speak very highly of the establishment.
Their phone number is 618-357-9839.

We always manage to arrange some kind of transportation to and from both of
these places. If they are full there are other motels in the area and
transportation can usually be managed with no particular problems.

HOW: Flying to PJY is the primo way to arrive. If that doesn’t work many
fly commercial to St. Louis and rent a car for the last 90 miles from the
airport. Whatever works for you works for us! Pinckneyville airport is
right on Illinois 127 just six miles south of the town of Pinckneyville.
Route 127 is exit 50 off of I-64. The airport is about 30 miles south of
I-64.

Please send an email to Mary at so that she can get some
idea how many steaks to buy for Saturday night dinner! It makes it a lot
easier when we have some idea of how many people to plan for meals.

I guess the real question is why does the FAA feel it's necessary for
a homebuilder to have done 51% of the work? Is it to protect him from
himself, or to protect the public from him, or are there other
reasons? What of the prototypes built by Lockheed or Boeing; 51% of
them aren't constructed by a single individual.

It seems that there is some fundamental assumption that I am
overlooking, because the current FAA 51% mandate seems arbitrary and
unfounded to me.

All aircraft are licensed under one of a limited set of rules before being
allowed to enter our airspace. The only exception to this is a class of
flying machines, called "ultralights" that fall under part 103. These
aircraft are exempted from some of the oversight because they are so
lightweight that they do not present a serious danger to people who are not
committing the unnatural act of flight in one of the contraptions.

All larger and heavier aircraft can endanger people on the ground who have a
right to be protected from fools falling out of the sky into their homes.
Theoretically, anyway.

The 51% rule has applied since the EAA was first founded back in 1953.
Interestingly, building either wings or a fuselage is considered 51% of the
aircraft? The idea was to allow the builder to utilize scrounged aircraft
parts, and to use standard aircraft engines and propellors.

Why is it reasonable? Simple. To license an airplane as Experimental -
Amateur built the amateur in question must build a substantial portion of
the aircraft. Otherwise it is NOT "amateur built" and must be licensed in
some other category, such as Experimental - Exhibition, or Standard Type
Certified or some such.

How can it possibly be "unconstitutional" to restrict aircraft licensed as
"amateur built" to only aircraft that were built by amateurs. By definition
"Professionally Built" does NOT fit into this license category and should be
licensed in one of the other categories. And can be under the existing
rules. All that it requires is compliance with the appropriate regulations
to ensure safe operation and acceptable construction standards.

Highflyer

the 51% rule only applies to amateur-built aircraft.


Why? That seems a little arbitrary to me. If one group is enjoined
from employing others to construct an aircraft, why should another
group be permitted to do the same thing with impunity?



Any individual or group can construct an aircraft. No one has been told
they cannot construct an aircraft. The only thing they are being told is
that it is illegal to attempt to license an aircraft in the official
specific license category of "Experimental - Amateur Built" that wan NOT in
fact, built by an amateur. I do not have a problem with that. Any
aircraft not built by an amateur can indeed be licensed, but only in the
appropriate category. If they proceed to license the aircraft correctly
there is no problem and no objection. The only problem is with people who
make known false official statements to allow an outcome they deem
favorable, if illegal.

Rather like saying "I didn't make enough money last year to file income tax.
All those W-2's with my name on them are really not mine or are mistaken and
should be ignored."

Highflyer

It may be reasonable, but no one has
provided a logical rational for it yet in this discussion.



If you believe that, you cannot read. By the way, rational is used
incorrectly in that sentence. It is used as "rationale" instead of it own
meaning. :-)

Highflyer

Larry Dighera wrote: One of his stupidest post ever. And that's saying
something.


Larry I have no problem with Kit Built at all. I'm building one myself.

As far as where the US Government gets it's authority to regulate our
airspace I would assume it is from the same place where it gets it
authority to create the Department of Transportation which is probably
the Interstate Commerce clause of the constitution. I really don't have
either the time or desire to look it up.

But just so you know you probably won't find it worded very clearly. The
reason for that is because there was little war in the mid 1800s that
changed the face of what the federal government can an can't do. If you
don't like well either build a time machine and go sign up to fight for
the South.