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Unusual attitude recovery advice sought



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 25th 08, 08:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Eamon McKinley
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Posts: 3
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

Hello everyone,

I'm about a week away from taking my instrument checkride, but I'm
lacking in one area I thought would be a breeze. After spending months
practicing holds, approaches & arcs I was double-checking the PTS and
realised that we had not practised unusual attitudes. My CFII told me
they would be no problem and we would cover them before the checkride.
Well, a few days ago we attempted a couple and I totally blew it.
Basically I became so disoriented and uncomfortable during the setup,
I was unable to cope. In each case it was a negatives that got me.

Because I was still suffering the residual effects of the flu we
decided to wait and try them again. After easing me into the saddle
with a gentle setup I made a good recovery. Unfortunately he gave me
some more negative G's on the next one and I couldn't handle it- I
grunted and reached out for the controls before he said "recover".

On the ground we discussed the situation and my CFII told me that he
likes to be aggressive with the unusual attitudes in order that I can
handle the worst cases. He also said the CE he uses likes to do the
same. Rather than cancel the checkride, his recommendation was that
one of us briefs the DE that I have low negative G tolerance. I don't
know how I feel about this, it seems like a cop-out to be quite
honest.

Thoughts & advice would be very much appreciated.
  #2  
Old March 26th 08, 12:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 156
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

On Mar 25, 3:07*pm, Eamon McKinley wrote:
Unfortunately he gave me
some more negative G's on the next one and I couldn't handle it- I
grunted and reached out for the controls before he said "recover".

On the ground we discussed the situation and my CFII told me that he
likes to be aggressive with the unusual attitudes in order that I can
handle the worst cases. He also said the CE he uses likes to do the
same. Rather than cancel the checkride, his recommendation was that
one of us briefs the DE that I have low negative G tolerance. I don't
know how I feel about this, it seems like a cop-out to be quite
honest.


Interesting question. Being able to handle the worst is certainly a
good idea. On the other hand, nothing in the instrument PTS requires
enduring negative Gs; I don't think my instructors used anything more
aggressive than lazy 8s or chandelles to set up unusual attitudes.

If you're going to ask the DE to avoid negative Gs, I'd suggest doing
so well before the day of the practical test. That way, if the DE
isn't going to grant your request, you can find that out before you're
committed to pay for the checkride.
  #3  
Old March 26th 08, 12:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Dan[_1_]
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Posts: 211
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

On Mar 25, 1:24*pm, john smith wrote:
Eamon McKinley wrote:
Thoughts & advice would be very much appreciated.


My thoughts are to take care of flying in the following order:

1. airspeed - increasing... pull back on the throttle; decreasing...
push in on the throttle

2. pitch attitude - nose down... pull back on the yoke/stick; nose up...
push forward on the yoke/stick

3. roll attitude - roll left/right to wings level


Doesn't #3 usually come before #2? Otherwise, a tightening spiral
might result.

--Dan
  #4  
Old March 26th 08, 12:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 156
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

On Mar 25, 4:24*pm, john smith wrote:
My thoughts are to take care of flying in the following order:

1. airspeed - increasing... pull back on the throttle; decreasing...
push in on the throttle

2. pitch attitude - nose down... pull back on the yoke/stick; nose up...
push forward on the yoke/stick

3. roll attitude - roll left/right to wings level


There are a few different ways that advice could kill you.

What you do about pitching should depend more on airspeed than on
attitude. A stall can occur even if you're pitching down, so your
advice to pull the nose up if it's down can be just the opposite of
what you need to do. Instead, you should pitch down (and advance the
throttle) if your airspeed is too low (but first, check your rate-of-
turn or heading indicator to see if you're in a spin; if so, recover
according to the procedure in your plane's POH).

If your airspeed is too high, DON'T pitch up before checking your bank
angle. If you're in a high-speed spiral dive and you apply back
elevator, you could worsen the spiral and overstress the airplane.
Instead, roll level first (and put the throttle to idle), and see what
happens. If the plane pitches up sharply--which can happen because
you're now at high speed with abruptly less load factor--then you may
not need to apply back elevator at all, and indeed may even need some
forward pressure to prevent too steep an upward pitch.
  #5  
Old March 26th 08, 02:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Posts: 790
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

"Eamon McKinley" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

I'm about a week away from taking my instrument checkride, but I'm
lacking in one area I thought would be a breeze. After spending months
practicing holds, approaches & arcs I was double-checking the PTS and
realised that we had not practised unusual attitudes. My CFII told me
they would be no problem and we would cover them before the checkride.
Well, a few days ago we attempted a couple and I totally blew it.
Basically I became so disoriented and uncomfortable during the setup,
I was unable to cope. In each case it was a negatives that got me.

...


What kind of problems do you have in turbulance?

Getting bounced around in the soup is not like in VMC - your eyes and inner
ear are just not going to agree.

How much time in actual IMC do you have? I would give some thought to riding
along with another pilot to see if you can hang in there when the going gets
rough - one wouldn't want to find out that a senstitivy to negitive G causes
you to "blow up" in hard, single pilot, IFR.

Other than that - practice and build tolerance - it can really make a
difference. Bob Hoover taught himself to fly acro as a way to get over
air-sickness.

Note: I am not recommending "learn yourself acrobatics" - yes Bob Hoover was
able to do it, but Bob Hoover is Bob Hoover - you and I ain't.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

  #6  
Old March 26th 08, 02:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting
Dan[_10_]
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Posts: 650
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

On Mar 25, 7:29 pm, wrote:
On Mar 25, 4:24 pm, john smith wrote:

My thoughts are to take care of flying in the following order:


1. airspeed - increasing... pull back on the throttle; decreasing...
push in on the throttle


2. pitch attitude - nose down... pull back on the yoke/stick; nose up...
push forward on the yoke/stick


3. roll attitude - roll left/right to wings level


There are a few different ways that advice could kill you.

If your airspeed is too high, DON'T pitch up before checking your bank
angle. If you're in a high-speed spiral dive and you apply back
elevator, you could worsen the spiral and overstress the airplane.
Instead, roll level first (and put the throttle to idle), and see what
happens. If the plane pitches up sharply--which can happen because
you're now at high speed with abruptly less load factor--then you may
not need to apply back elevator at all, and indeed may even need some
forward pressure to prevent too steep an upward pitch.


Absolutely!
  #7  
Old March 26th 08, 03:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Eamon McKinley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:01:48 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote:

"Eamon McKinley" wrote in message
.. .
Hello everyone,

I'm about a week away from taking my instrument checkride, but I'm
lacking in one area I thought would be a breeze. After spending months
practicing holds, approaches & arcs I was double-checking the PTS and
realised that we had not practised unusual attitudes. My CFII told me
they would be no problem and we would cover them before the checkride.
Well, a few days ago we attempted a couple and I totally blew it.
Basically I became so disoriented and uncomfortable during the setup,
I was unable to cope. In each case it was a negatives that got me.

...


What kind of problems do you have in turbulance?


Never had a problem.

Getting bounced around in the soup is not like in VMC - your eyes and inner
ear are just not going to agree.

How much time in actual IMC do you have? I would give some thought to riding
along with another pilot to see if you can hang in there when the going gets
rough - one wouldn't want to find out that a senstitivy to negitive G causes
you to "blow up" in hard, single pilot, IFR.


I have about 5 hours actual.

Other than that - practice and build tolerance - it can really make a
difference. Bob Hoover taught himself to fly acro as a way to get over
air-sickness.


During my primary training I never had a problem with unusual
attitudes. So either I've changed or the CFI is the difference. As I
mentioned in the OP, I think it's a stylistic difference between
CFI's; my current CFI is excellent but for some reason he thinks it's
important to make me uncomfortable during the setup for an unusual
attitude. I want to get good at this stuff but he's freaked me out
twice and now it feels like I've hit a psychological stumbling block.

Note: I am not recommending "learn yourself acrobatics" - yes Bob Hoover was
able to do it, but Bob Hoover is Bob Hoover - you and I ain't.


I was going to do that anyway before this happened.
  #8  
Old March 26th 08, 03:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 790
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

"Eamon McKinley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:01:48 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote:
...


What kind of problems do you have in turbulance?


Never had a problem.


Ok - just had to ask, eh?

...
During my primary training I never had a problem with unusual
attitudes. So either I've changed or the CFI is the difference. As I
mentioned in the OP, I think it's a stylistic difference between
CFI's; my current CFI is excellent but for some reason he thinks it's
important to make me uncomfortable during the setup for an unusual
attitude. I want to get good at this stuff but he's freaked me out
twice and now it feels like I've hit a psychological stumbling block.


I wouldn't be surprised if they set up differently - and this guy just hits
you the wrong way. I will note that my tolerance has gone down with lack of
exposure and age...


Note: I am not recommending "learn yourself acrobatics" - yes Bob Hoover
was
able to do it, but Bob Hoover is Bob Hoover - you and I ain't.


I was going to do that anyway before this happened.


Exposure does build tolerance.


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

  #9  
Old March 26th 08, 03:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mike Adams[_2_]
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Posts: 134
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

Eamon McKinley wrote:

Thoughts & advice would be very much appreciated.

If your experience is anything like mine was, you'll have absolutely no problem. The DE I had was a
master of deception on this. He was able to put the airplane in the most awful situation, with hardly any
unusual g's. He was very smooth (and clever) in making the airplane's attitude NOT agree with the
sensory inputs. I don't know how he did it, but it was very effective. Trying to figure out where we were
going based on the seat of the pants just didn't work. So, I'd say focus on your recovery technique (as
other replies have described) and don't worry about the g's.

Mike

  #10  
Old March 26th 08, 05:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Eamon McKinley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Unusual attitude recovery advice sought

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:27:14 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote:

Exposure does build tolerance.


Yes sir. If I ever become a CFI I'm going to start practicing unusual
attitudes nice and early in the student's training rather than a week
before the checkride!
 




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