I Want My Own Bird

I was considering a sole ownership, but I have to admit, it would be a
little bit uncomfortable for me to spend $1400 at this particular time. Two
years from now....who knows.

My target range was $800 to $900 dollars, not including what I'd expected to
pay for fuel and oil. Perhaps I should move that target north. It appears
that if I partner with someone, the costs could be cut dramatically. I
don't have a problem partnering with someone if it came down to that. but,
how to you determine a partner's reliability....someone who won't leave you
holding the bag or literally trashing the plane?

I planned on going to West Houston and Weiser this weekend to scout out the
area and get prices on hanger costs. I'll report back any information I
find.

ksmithATnhmccdDOTedu

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...
My take on it.. 250 is CHEAP for the Houston area. Hooks is in my
opinion an EXCELLENT GA field with a restaurant, tower, daytime fuel
truck, 24 hour fuel pump access and several schools on field for a
decent sized instructor pool.

I am part of a partnership that is joining into an existing hangar lease
crosstown at EFD, and the small hangars are running $400/mo (but these
hold 2-3 small planes). At Clover/Pearland Regional the rent is running
$350 average for T-hangars that vary from all-metal to "metal sheeting
over wood frame" (boat shed quality)

I can't comment on West Houston or Weiser's prices..

That being said.. for a used midtime $65,000 archer with 75% financing
your 10 year note payment will be balpark $575-600 depending on
interest. $250/mo is cheap for hangar, if you can get it at that price.
I have not priced insurance, but count on $20-25/hr based on current
fuel costs ($200/mo for a 100 hr year), Engine reserve cost I have heard
people say $5-10/hr and that is probably an even broader range.. Direct
operating costs of $40 an hour would probably be very conservative (and
comes out to $320/mo for a 100 hr year).

So far, without insurance, you are looking at $1400/mo in rough
calculations. Are you considering sole ownership? A partnership? The
Houston Chronicle always seems to have a partnership or used a/c
available in the classifieds, section 201 I believe, right after the
trucks and before the boats.

I also want to say Woody Leskal, the developer/owner down at West
Houston has a business where he refurbs older commanche 250's and the
like, and sells 1/3rd share for $33,000. If you keep the plane at IWS he
will even offer to manage the plane/partnership for you (im sure for a
fee.. but it takes some of the hassle out of ownership).

Also, Myplane.com is supposedly offering fractional ownership in the
Houston area, but they have not responded to the single internet inquiry
I made of their local rep.

I apologize if this isn't quite what you are looking for (my numbers are
rough and estimated, not from personal experience)... I'm part of an
experimental build that we hope to have airborne by next summer that
will blow the socks off an Archer class aircraft. Building your own
isn't for everyone, but it may give you a lot more plane for your $$, if
its capable of suiting your needs and situation (family supportive, have
the time, etc).

Good luck, and if you to discuss this or anything else regarding Houston
area aviation issues further, you can reach me at doggtyredATyahooDOTcom.

Dave



Yeah_right wrote:

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself
plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an
Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in
the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month.
Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much
some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes
with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know
the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable,
and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid
my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

Do yourself a favor, go talk to the new owner at High Tech aviation.

I flew into Hooks after more than a year when I met him. He has done the
hugest 180 on a FBO I have ever seen - from dust bunnies to busy bodies. I
don't know how long it took him, but the place is totally different.

Tell him what you are thinking about doing. He knows a lot about pipers, as
he owns a few. In the meantime, you can rent from him too. His insurance
will be much more, but since you will be nicer to your plane than his
renters, his maintenance costs will be a conservative figure for you. I
assume he gets the planes serviced at the hangar next to him, so you can
find out if that guy is a good AP.

And figure that you will pay much more for fuel when you are not at Hooks.
That place is dirt cheap (besides the resturaunt, that is why I stopped
there).

The posters so far have been about right for budgeting, especially the rainy
day fund.

Two years from now, it could all change.

Great idea.

Actually, I did my primary training there when it was ran by a lady named
Alice under the banner National Aviation. I think the new owner's name is
Michael. They have a website. It's http://www.nationalaviation.com/ . I
went there for Alice's celebratory retirement party where they fed a bunch
of pilots who patronized the business.

Though a little rough around the edges, it at least seemed to be a bustling
place when I was training there, at least that's what I perceived through
the naive starstruck aviation eyes I had at the time 6 years ago.

They don't know it yet, but they're about to get a lot of money from me in a
big way as I plan on going back there pretty soon to work on my IRF,
commercial, and multi engine tickets. The last time I was there, they had a
Seneca in the hanger my mouth was watering over.


"Dude" wrote in message
...
Do yourself a favor, go talk to the new owner at High Tech aviation.

I flew into Hooks after more than a year when I met him. He has done the
hugest 180 on a FBO I have ever seen - from dust bunnies to busy bodies.
I
don't know how long it took him, but the place is totally different.

Tell him what you are thinking about doing. He knows a lot about pipers,
as
he owns a few. In the meantime, you can rent from him too. His insurance
will be much more, but since you will be nicer to your plane than his
renters, his maintenance costs will be a conservative figure for you. I
assume he gets the planes serviced at the hangar next to him, so you can
find out if that guy is a good AP.

And figure that you will pay much more for fuel when you are not at Hooks.
That place is dirt cheap (besides the resturaunt, that is why I stopped
there).

The posters so far have been about right for budgeting, especially the
rainy
day fund.

Two years from now, it could all change.

I think you will find the place has changed a lot.



"Yeah_right" wrote in message
...
Great idea.

Actually, I did my primary training there when it was ran by a lady named
Alice under the banner National Aviation. I think the new owner's name is
Michael. They have a website. It's http://www.nationalaviation.com/ .
I
went there for Alice's celebratory retirement party where they fed a bunch
of pilots who patronized the business.

Though a little rough around the edges, it at least seemed to be a
bustling
place when I was training there, at least that's what I perceived through
the naive starstruck aviation eyes I had at the time 6 years ago.

They don't know it yet, but they're about to get a lot of money from me in
a
big way as I plan on going back there pretty soon to work on my IRF,
commercial, and multi engine tickets. The last time I was there, they had
a
Seneca in the hanger my mouth was watering over.


"Dude" wrote in message
...
Do yourself a favor, go talk to the new owner at High Tech aviation.

I flew into Hooks after more than a year when I met him. He has done the
hugest 180 on a FBO I have ever seen - from dust bunnies to busy bodies.
I
don't know how long it took him, but the place is totally different.

Tell him what you are thinking about doing. He knows a lot about pipers,
as
he owns a few. In the meantime, you can rent from him too. His insurance
will be much more, but since you will be nicer to your plane than his
renters, his maintenance costs will be a conservative figure for you. I
assume he gets the planes serviced at the hangar next to him, so you can
find out if that guy is a good AP.

And figure that you will pay much more for fuel when you are not at
Hooks.
That place is dirt cheap (besides the resturaunt, that is why I stopped
there).

The posters so far have been about right for budgeting, especially the
rainy
day fund.

Two years from now, it could all change.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 04:50:58 GMT, "Yeah_right"
wrote:

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month. Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable, and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

An Archer will cost roughly as follows:

$1k/year insurance ($55k hull, $1M liability, $100k/seat)
$3k/year hangar (the $250/month is a great price by the way)
$3k/year annual and misc maintenance (this is a conservative number)
--------------------------------------------------------------
$7k/year fixed costs

Regarding a loan. If you have to finance, try to use a home equity
line to pay for the loan. Most home equities are in the 6.0% range,
and would be tax deductible for an effective cost of 4.0%. This is a
huge advantage over what you will find for conventional aircraft loan
rates, which are probably in the upper 7s or 8s now.

55k financed @ 8% for 20 years = $460/month = $5520/year

Direct hourly costs:
Fuel = 10gph * $3.00/gallon = $30/hr
Oil = $1/hr
-------------------------------
$31/hr

Other hourly costs:
Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.

There are other costs too. Gyros, radios, paint, interior do not last
forever.

So flying approx 150hrs / year (which is more than most owners).
Hourly costs = 150 * 31 = $4650
Reserve costs = $1500
Finance costs = $5520
Fixed costs = $7000
------------------------------------------
$18670 / year

I'm sure you can own an Archer for cheaper than this, especially if
you can shop around, do some of your own maintenance, and get lucky
with (no) major maintenance.

One offsetting variable, used airplanes typically appreciate, which
can offset some of the costs, but I sure would not count on it - as
light GA has not shown much price growth in the last 2-3 years.

-Nathan

Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.


Although the rest looked good, I gotta disagree here.

it will depreciate for about 8 or 9 per hour over all due to engine time.
Near the beginning and near the end it can get more complicated, but in the
middle its at least 8 per hour.

Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.

And this is where you see a large difference for you Lyc boys. Lyc
prices are ridiculous. I can have my O-470 overhauled and reinstalled
for closer to $15K. I will be turning my 470 into a 520 and it will
still be less than $20K installed.

Yea... those overhaul costs just totally suck.. I'm rebuilding the first
of 3 Mazda rotary 13B engine cores I obtained for $700 batch cost. I've
spent maybe $500 in tools that I didn't already possess.. The first
engine has minimal wear (I've mic'd all the clearances) and all the
major components will be reuseable. I'm expecting an outlay of maybe
$1000 for new seals, gaskets, seal springs, oil pump chain... Another
$1000 for the ECU.. another $1000 for engine monitoring equipement. The
the radiators, peripherals and such should run under $1000 (no vacuum
needed, dual alt bird).. Another $3,000 for the gearbox/psru.

So.. my initial cost is going to be $7500 or so... and when rebuild time
comes again (whenever that may be... As long as compressions and temps
are good, keep on running...) I will have to spring for another $1000 in
springs/seals/gaskets.. Or start working on one of the other two
engines.. Oh yea... maybe $2,000 or less for the turbo assembly and
wastegate to mildly charge/normalize the engine, so that we get 200-250
hp max up to altitude.

Yea.. those engine rebuild costs just eat your lunch.
Dave (putting on asbestos suit)



Seriously, homebuilts aren't for everyone, and neither are
auto-conversions. Unless you are prepared to spend the time, money and
RISK troubleshooting a truly custom powerplant its best to stick with
tried and true. I would not even be attempting this if it were not for
the large base of knowledge and experience I've been able to tap in some
other venues with regards to this venture. I'm learning every day. But
when its over with, I am hoping to realize economies and performance on
a scale that would not be possible with the certified air cooled engines.


Newps wrote:



Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.


And this is where you see a large difference for you Lyc boys. Lyc
prices are ridiculous. I can have my O-470 overhauled and reinstalled
for closer to $15K. I will be turning my 470 into a 520 and it will
still be less than $20K installed.

if the above got double posted... I apologize.. Problems with
Netscrape.. My story and I'm stickin to it.

Dave

Dave S wrote:

Yea... those overhaul costs just totally suck.. I'm rebuilding the first
of 3 Mazda rotary 13B engine cores I obtained for $700 batch cost. I've
spent maybe $500 in tools that I didn't already possess.. The first
engine has minimal wear (I've mic'd all the clearances) and all the
major components will be reuseable. I'm expecting an outlay of maybe
$1000 for new seals, gaskets, seal springs, oil pump chain... Another
$1000 for the ECU.. another $1000 for engine monitoring equipement. The
the radiators, peripherals and such should run under $1000 (no vacuum
needed, dual alt bird).. Another $3,000 for the gearbox/psru.

So.. my initial cost is going to be $7500 or so... and when rebuild time
comes again (whenever that may be... As long as compressions and temps
are good, keep on running...) I will have to spring for another $1000 in
springs/seals/gaskets.. Or start working on one of the other two
engines.. Oh yea... maybe $2,000 or less for the turbo assembly and
wastegate to mildly charge/normalize the engine, so that we get 200-250
hp max up to altitude.

Yea.. those engine rebuild costs just eat your lunch.
Dave (putting on asbestos suit)



Seriously, homebuilts aren't for everyone, and neither are
auto-conversions. Unless you are prepared to spend the time, money and
RISK troubleshooting a truly custom powerplant its best to stick with
tried and true. I would not even be attempting this if it were not for
the large base of knowledge and experience I've been able to tap in some
other venues with regards to this venture. I'm learning every day. But
when its over with, I am hoping to realize economies and performance on
a scale that would not be possible with the certified air cooled engines.


Newps wrote:




Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.



And this is where you see a large difference for you Lyc boys. Lyc
prices are ridiculous. I can have my O-470 overhauled and reinstalled
for closer to $15K. I will be turning my 470 into a 520 and it will
still be less than $20K installed.

Dude wrote:

Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.



Although the rest looked good, I gotta disagree here.

it will depreciate for about 8 or 9 per hour over all due to engine time.
Near the beginning and near the end it can get more complicated, but in the
middle its at least 8 per hour.

According to AOPA's VREF service, a 1976 Archer II would depreciate at
the rate of $6.75/hr on the engine and $1.52/hr on the airframe