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The nature of military justice.
Many experts in military law consider the term military justice a contradiction
in terms. For example, you are charged with a crime by the military. The judge is military, The prosecuting attourney is military, your defense attourney is military and the entire jury is military. There is no representation that is in any way neutral or objective. And we know the the military follows the orders of superior officers. Where is the justice? Now lets extend that to civilian life. You have an argument with a neighbor and he takes you to court. When you get to court you find the judge is your neighbors cousin. The prosecuting attourney is one of the neighbors sons and his other son is your defense attourney. The entire jury consists of his family. Now you have an exmple of miliitary justice which all too often is no justice at all. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#2
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Many experts in military law consider the term military justice a contradiction in terms. For example, you are charged with a crime by the military. The judge is military, The prosecuting attourney is military, your defense attourney is military and the entire jury is military. There is no representation that is in any way neutral or objective. And we know the the military follows the orders of superior officers. Where is the justice? Huh? Military defendants can indeed secure civilian representation if they so desire. And since the defendant is *also* military, the process is one conducted by his peers in the truest sense of the word. Command influence in the courts martial process, once it gets to that point, is not allowed (but indeed may pop up, or that accusation may occur), but then again politics has been known to influence the justice process in the civil world. There is an appeals process that does indeed sometimes result in the reversal of convictions (i.e., an airman had his conviction overturned because polygraph information was improperly used in his trial). Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a conviction rate of about 92%--see http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/annua...7ArmyStats.pdf ); civilian courts at the state level had about an 88% conviction rate in 1996 (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/psc96.pdf ), so your view that the military process is somehow terribly "unjust" does not seem to stand up to facts. Brooks Now lets extend that to civilian life. You have an argument with a neighbor and he takes you to court. When you get to court you find the judge is your neighbors cousin. The prosecuting attourney is one of the neighbors sons and his other son is your defense attourney. The entire jury consists of his family. Now you have an exmple of miliitary justice which all too often is no justice at all. Arthur Kramer |
#3
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ubject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 1/8/04 10:00 AM Paci Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#5
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Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: Charles Gray Date: 1/8/04 10:57 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: je9rvvg923dtjv7c2jbgi3 Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. How difficult is it to get such a reccomendation from a Board of inquiry? I know in some states the preliminary hearing is little more than a formality, while in others some cases are tossed out. I'm assuming that the board is much like a preliminary hearing in that they decide whether the case needs to proceed to a full court. States have nothing to do with it. We are talking about military boards of Inquiries. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#6
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: The nature of military justice. From: Charles Gray Date: 1/8/04 10:57 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: je9rvvg923dtjv7c2jbgi3 Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. How difficult is it to get such a reccomendation from a Board of inquiry? I know in some states the preliminary hearing is little more than a formality, while in others some cases are tossed out. I'm assuming that the board is much like a preliminary hearing in that they decide whether the case needs to proceed to a full court. States have nothing to do with it. We are talking about military boards of Inquiries. No, you are not. Read the UCMJ before you make a further fool of yourself. Article 32 to be specific. Brooks Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#7
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... ubject: The nature of military justice. From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 1/8/04 10:00 AM Paci Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". A military conviction rate of 92% versus a civil conviction rate of 88% (felonies only, IIRC, and the misdemeanor rate was a bit higher) inidicates your premise is faulty. And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. FYI, courts martials are not the direct result of any "board of inquiry"--they stem from an Article 32 investigation conducted by a single qualified officer, appointed by the convening authority, who may or may not recommend proceeding to courts martial; alternatively, of course, they can also stem from the accused's refusal to accept an Article 15. Final decision as to whether or not to conduct the CM resides with the convening authority. A board of inquiry, in those isolated cases where one is formed, can recommend that Artcile 32 proceedings be initiated, but they don't "recommend a courts martial". Sounds like your "extensive service" (and exactly how many years what that service?) left you a bit lacking in the military justice knowledge area. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. Bullcrap. The ads are full of civil attorneys willing to take on courts martials--do a google and you have to wade through the attorneys pitches to get to the hard data sites. This appears to be another typical Art Kramer, "It is what I say it is regardless of the actual facts" diatribe. Of course you can present some *facts* to support your baseless allegations...or can you? And I'll wager I had more years in uniform than you did--wanna bet? Brooks Arthur Kramer |
#8
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Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 1/8/04 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... ubject: The nature of military justice. From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 1/8/04 10:00 AM Paci Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". A military conviction rate of 92% versus a civil conviction rate of 88% (felonies only, IIRC, and the misdemeanor rate was a bit higher) inidicates your premise is faulty. And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. FYI, courts martials are not the direct result of any "board of inquiry"--they stem from an Article 32 investigation conducted by a single qualified officer, appointed by the convening authority, who may or may not recommend proceeding to courts martial; alternatively, of course, they can also stem from the accused's refusal to accept an Article 15. Final decision as to whether or not to conduct the CM resides with the convening authority. A board of inquiry, in those isolated cases where one is formed, can recommend that Artcile 32 proceedings be initiated, but they don't "recommend a courts martial". Sounds like your "extensive service" (and exactly how many years what that service?) left you a bit lacking in the military justice knowledge area. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. Bullcrap. The ads are full of civil attorneys willing to take on courts martials--do a google and you have to wade through the attorneys pitches to get to the hard data sites. This appears to be another typical Art Kramer, "It is what I say it is regardless of the actual facts" diatribe. Of course you can present some *facts* to support your baseless allegations...or can you? And I'll wager I had more years in uniform than you did--wanna bet? Brooks Arthur Kramer Read Gordon's post and get in touch with military reality. There is a big difference between what is written and what actually happens Bur i guess you don't know about that. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#9
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: The nature of military justice. From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 1/8/04 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... ubject: The nature of military justice. From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 1/8/04 10:00 AM Paci Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". A military conviction rate of 92% versus a civil conviction rate of 88% (felonies only, IIRC, and the misdemeanor rate was a bit higher) inidicates your premise is faulty. And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. FYI, courts martials are not the direct result of any "board of inquiry"--they stem from an Article 32 investigation conducted by a single qualified officer, appointed by the convening authority, who may or may not recommend proceeding to courts martial; alternatively, of course, they can also stem from the accused's refusal to accept an Article 15. Final decision as to whether or not to conduct the CM resides with the convening authority. A board of inquiry, in those isolated cases where one is formed, can recommend that Artcile 32 proceedings be initiated, but they don't "recommend a courts martial". Sounds like your "extensive service" (and exactly how many years what that service?) left you a bit lacking in the military justice knowledge area. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. Bullcrap. The ads are full of civil attorneys willing to take on courts martials--do a google and you have to wade through the attorneys pitches to get to the hard data sites. This appears to be another typical Art Kramer, "It is what I say it is regardless of the actual facts" diatribe. Of course you can present some *facts* to support your baseless allegations...or can you? And I'll wager I had more years in uniform than you did--wanna bet? Brooks Arthur Kramer Read Gordon's post and get in touch with military reality. There is a big difference between what is written and what actually happens Bur i guess you don't know about that. Gordon's post dealt with an admin board--that is not a CM? Get it? And next time try responding to the points made--your habit of tossing out crap and then not responding when called to task on it gets a bit tiresome. Brooks Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#10
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message
... From: "Kevin Brooks" Many courts martials result in the defendant being exhonerated (in 1997, the US Army had 40 acquittals out of 741 general courts martials, and 46 acquittals out of 315 special courts martials, for a convi 40 equitals out of 741 is hardly "many". And as anyone with extensive experience in military service knows, once a board of inquiry recommends a court marshal, the chance of equital is very small as your figures prove. And once the military discovers you intend to get civilian council, you might find youreself quietly threatened to just forget that idea.. Or else. The equital rate of courts martial compared to civillian felony equital rates is extremely unrealistic. The closest civillian equivalent to the Article 15 process is plea bargaining. So you could almost view an Article 15, signed by the accused as either a) a 'guilty as charged' plea, or b) a plea bargain in an effort to avoid courts martial. In this light, one could make an argument that the courts martial conviction rate is actually pretty low. I've known several people that have used civilian council. The only 'ill' effect any one of them reported was the general idea that he had hired the wrong civilian lawyer. The one he got wasn't very well versed in courts martial procedures. Finally, regarding the command influence factor; the inspector general system was specifically designed to defeat 'direct' command influence on actual judicial proceedings. Yep, there are always flaws (as in any system, military or civilian) but in general, attorneys trained as officers do their level best in defense of their 'clients.' Further down this thread is first hand proof; the poster, while being blindsided by a witness that was either purjuring himself, or had lied in pre-trial questioning, still had an attorney that was as flabergasted by the act as he was. I feel safe within the UCMJ and how it's handled. Art, I honor your prior service and the sacrifices you have made for our country, but you may just be a little out of touch with the current military situation in this topic. |
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