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#21
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sep 9, 7:23*pm, ContestID67 wrote:
I was informed (and verified) that there is a way to easily test the 302 warning system while on the ground. - Power down the 302 - Unlock the airbrakes with the gear unlocked/up - Power up the 302 The alarm will then sound (euro siren) after the self test is complete. *A large upwards pointing arrow will appear in the display, different than the small speed up/down arrows, meaning I suppose that your gear is up. *You can silence the alarm by pushing the button. Yet another undocumented feature/sound from the Cambridge 302! - John You don't have to power it down. Simply unlocking the brakes/spoilers with the gear up will produce an alarm. You can turn the alarm on and off by locking/unlocking the brakes/spoilers with the gear up. Powering up/down does nothing different. That does not test the speed enabled (spoilers unlocked on takeoff) alarm however. By the way, with the 303, you'll get an appropriate text message on the screen depending on which alarm it is. |
#22
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sep 9, 7:23*pm, ContestID67 wrote:
I was informed (and verified) that there is a way to easily test the 302 warning system while on the ground. - Power down the 302 - Unlock the airbrakes with the gear unlocked/up - Power up the 302 The alarm will then sound (euro siren) after the self test is complete. *A large upwards pointing arrow will appear in the display, different than the small speed up/down arrows, meaning I suppose that your gear is up. *You can silence the alarm by pushing the button. Yet another undocumented feature/sound from the Cambridge 302! - John It is documented. See page 8 of the 302 manual. |
#23
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some
people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? "Darryl Ramm" wrote in message ... "Dan Marotta" wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. But those pilots clearly are flying. And are killing themselves and hurting passengers etc.in depressingly familiar accidents. In the case of the C302 (and hopefully ClearNav vario) this feature works very well and I would connect in any glider I owned. The limit with these things is does having a lots of these alarms just end up confusing/distractions and can the pilot handle and respond to the alarm (and given how far behind the aircraft some seem this may be a problem). But a "it's there problem" attitude and just sitting by while pilots kill themselves is not going to help this sport or those pilots. And yes if somebody is clearly having problems with safe spoiler operation/handling emergencies/distractions etc. my first call would be time with a good instructor not add a gadget but those gadgets may have a place as well. Darryl |
#24
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Can we tell who is competent with certainty?
On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had this happen to them. As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo that's having accidents. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#25
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
Yes, I still agree.
If you'll read my statement again, you'll see that I said "If your spoilers **suck open** and you don't recognize it..." There's a big difference in the spoilers being unlocked and open. A slowly failing mechanizm will likely be overlooked, and I understand that, but the sudden noise, drag, and loss of lift of open spoilers better be recognized *immediately* or, as I said before, you shouldn't be flying. "Mark" wrote in message ... On Sep 9, 10:00 am, "Dan Marotta" wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Well Dan, What if the pilot locked the spoilers as part of their using a written pre-takeoff checklist. Maybe, the detent mechanism was slowly failing and the first sign of this progressive failure was the first time the spoilers opened on tow. Maybe they opened in conjunction with some turbulence after the tow was well under way. Maybe the climb rate was still 3-400 FPM all the way to release. Do you still agree with your statement?? Mark |
#26
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
What about the guys who routinely, and with knowledge, begin takeoff with
their spoliers partially opened. I do that when I'm flying the rented LS-4 as it feels to me like it improves aileron control early in the takeoff roll. I close and lock the spoilers as soon as control is assured. In my Mosquito, I begin takeoff roll with flaps full negative as I did in my previous LS-6. Would you deny me a hookup even after I announced to you that my spoilers are open and why? I'm talking about the (apparently) sleeping pilots who, at 200 feet fail to notice that the spoilers have just popped open without command. I've read of the tow pilot taking that glider pilot to safe altitude, releasing him within good landing position, and then watching him fail to reach the airport because he never recognized the problem. And, please, let's not start another radio discussion. "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 09:00:53 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Maybe other outfits should adopt my club's new-for-2011 change in launch procedu the cable is NOT put on unless the pilot announces "Brakes locked" before asking for 'cable on'. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#27
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Can we tell who is competent with certainty?
I saw your previous statement, Eric. And maybe I misunderstood what you
said. I assume you said that you've mistakenly taken off with spoilers unlocked. That's an oversight that I'm not railing about. Answer me this: Assuming the spoilers sucked open sometime after liftoff, did you recognize it and close them, or did you fly blissfully along wondering why it was suddenly so noisy and your climb rate had diminished, not to mention the sudden drop causing your head to bang the canopy? "Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had this happen to them. As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo that's having accidents. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#28
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
Westbender - Thanks for the comments.
Power testing - You don't have to power up/down to test? Hmmm, that was not my experience - just deploying the airbrakes with gear up didn't do it, I had to power cycle. Different vintages of 302s? Documented Tones - I mis-spoke. After a careful review of the 302 manual all the tones are documented in various scattered parts of the manual - sometimes within the various screen settings and more clearly in Section 7 "Flying with the Cambridge DDV". This shows that re- reading the manual following the euphoria of new-avionics-itis is important. I would have preferred a concise review of the tones...something like; Climb Tone - In Climb mode, lift is indicated by a broken audio tone. The tone's pitch and beep rate are proportional to the climb rate. Sink Tone - Sink is indicated by a continuous tone. The tone's pitch is proportional to the sink rate. Speed to Fly Tones - In Cruise mode, short beeps and the UP arrow mean you should slow down (pull up). A continuous tone and the DOWN arrow mean you should speed up (push over). No tone indicates correct speed to fly. Minimum Speed Warning Tone - A di-di-dah “Slow Alarm” tone will be heard if the glider's airspeed is below the threshold. Gear/Airbrake Warning Tone (optional) - A “European Police Car” sound will be heard when; 1) Unlocking the airbrakes when airspeed rises above 25 knots. 2) During flight with the landing gear retracted and the airbrakes are unlocked. The above should include references to the relevant sections of the manual. Thanks again, John |
#29
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Can we tell who is competent with certainty?
Things go wrong - sometimes in ways that look like you are incompetent.
I had my airbrake over centre adjusted wrong at an annual inspection. First tow there was much excitement and rudder waggling. Every time I locked the lever back, every time they popped open 20 seconds later. Eventually just wedged them and flew, the aerotow was slower to climb because I could not hold the brakes entire ly closed with my thigh - but at least I was not having 20foot excursions the whole time. Lots of comments when I landed. Geometry checked and overcentre load adjusted correctly. Suddenly pilot competence increased substantially... So - yes we try to make things safe because things can go wrong. There is a fine line before sanitising to the point of pilots becoming dangerous. Unfortunately some folk just can't ever get safe. In our club operation they then have the choice of continuing with a safety pilot, or going back to being a spectator. Fortunately there are very few who fail to recognise their own limitations. It is one of the reasons folk drift away. Hard call to make, but it is better to have someone alive and resentful of your decision than dead. On 2011/09/10 9:47 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote: On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had this happen to them. As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo that's having accidents. -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57 |
#30
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Can we tell who is competent with certainty?
On 9/10/2011 1:04 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw your previous statement, Eric. And maybe I misunderstood what you said. I assume you said that you've mistakenly taken off with spoilers unlocked. That's an oversight that I'm not railing about. Answer me this: Assuming the spoilers sucked open sometime after liftoff, did you recognize it and close them, or did you fly blissfully along wondering why it was suddenly so noisy and your climb rate had diminished, not to mention the sudden drop causing your head to bang the canopy? In one cases, I did tow along blissfully for a while, but it wasn't noisy, my climb rate did not diminish, and there wasn't any sudden drop. It would be great if those things happened, but they don't happen on an ASW 20 B when the spoilers slowly extend under tow. At some point, I realized I was flying at a higher than usual AOA for the speed I was being towed at. That perception was delayed because I was at a contest, flying with water, behind a fast, powerful towplane (twice the climb rate of the one in our club), and so was not familiar with the correct attitude. In the other case, they opened about 10' off the ground, a few seconds after liftoff. There was no extra noise, there was no reduction in climb rate, but I did notice a drop (but not sudden) that I first attributed to a sinking air or wind shear, but after "a few seconds" (5? 10?) I realized something was wrong, checked the spoilers - oops - and closed them. Again, being towed by a powerful tow plane. At high speeds, spoilers will act like you wrote (sudden opening, noisy, big drop), but at tow speeds, they can open so gently it's not immediately evident. My guess: this is probably what happens a lot of times when the spoiler suck open during the tow, and why the pilot doesn't recognize it immediately, and sometimes not at all. "Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had this happen to them. As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo that's having accidents. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl |
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