Water in our oil, or just alot of hot air?

Chris Wells wrote:

#1 has been circulating for years in motorcycle banter. I've seen for
myself that folks who only take short trips on their bikes get white
dipsticks, from all the moisture in their oil.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

--
Chris Wells

Seen the same on VWs when they only get short ground runs.

The small oil quanity probably exagerates the problem, but it's there
in all reciprocating engines.

As to the hot air aspect, what's in the cylinder after shut down?

If you pull the mixture, the cylinders are cleared with a few blades
of clean (?) air before the prop stops.

Turning off the switch, however, leaves some fuel in the chamber.
One of them is probably under pressure too.

$.02

"Richard Lamb" wrote

Water boils off at 212.9 F ?

So operating at 180 oil temp removes water - how?
(Yeah, I know - s l o w l y)

That sounds a lot like "go fly it for an hour".
Obviously the best solution, but not always possible.

I have had it put to me that the 180 is more like an average temperature.
As the oil circulates, it comes into contact with hot parts of the engine,
and until it falls back into the sump, or hits cooler parts of the engine,
it is temporarily well over 212, thus instantly evaporating the water in
that part of the oil.

Sooner or later (in an hour's time) all of the oil has passed over the hot
parts, and all the water is magically gone! g
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:24:07 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

I just watched a program about the huge Oresund bridge between Denmark
and Sweden, and there was a segment about how the corrosion problem for

the bridge was dealt with. Instead of painting, they use sealed
compartments that have the air humidity kept below 60%. This they said
eliminates corrosion. This started me thinking about the corrosion we
aircraft owners are told to guard against, since I have personally been

told by an overhaul shop, that half of all the engines he sees that
need work, need it because of corrosion. There are several "facts" that

I am beginning to question as to their validity. The ones that come to
mind a

1) You have to get the oil up to 180 deg F or the water in the oil
won't evaporate.


2) Starting and ground running the engine for a minute or so is the
"worst" thing you can possibly do.


3) Flying for an hour will "clean" the oil (or at least evaporate the
water, preventing acid formation) so that it doesn't turn to acid and
dissolve the engine while sitting idle.


----------------snip-----------

Blue Skies
Rusty

1) In automobiles years ago, the standard assertion was that you had to
get the engine temp up to 160 degrees for the water to evaporate from the
oil. As it happened, that was actually measuring water temp. 160 degrees
was simply the most common coolant thermostat temperature in those days. So
if the same jack asses are still breathing in and out, they are probably
claiming that 205 degrees is mandatory today.
About all I know for sure about water water condensing into much of
anything is:
a) it almost never happens inside a garage or hangar,

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

Current temp is 50F) The weather for the area says 85% but it's
raining with light fog. Of course the briefing I printed out at 3:00
AM says visibility 6, 5000 sct, 10,000 bkn with temp 4 in light rain
and thunderstorms with 5,000 sct.
It's now starting to clear from the west and MOP is showing Vis 10,
1000 sct, 1500 bkn. Most of the afternoon was 1 and 500.

b) an engine covered with plastic and sitting on the ground will
accumulate MASSIVE amounts of water,

We get the same thing in our hangars on the airplanes and engines.
If I went out to the hangar today I'd find the plane dripping. The
temp is dropping slowly. It'll be near the upper 30's tonight.
Opening the cowl would find water droplets on the cylinders and
crankcase.

This is in a well ventilated metal hangar with a concrete floor.

c) a small light object such as a medicine vial with a snap type lid will
accumulate water outdoors in the shade--such as under a patio roof.
As to evaporation, warmer is faster; but if the ambient humidity is
100%, a surprisingly small temperature rise (10 or 20 degrees IIRC) above
ambient will bring the relative humidity inside the engine below 50%.

Also the engine breathes in and out with temperature changes. So
cooling not only raised the relative humidity inside, it brings in
more cool, damp air.

2) I am not an aircraft and engine mechanic. However, I am confident
that running a Lycoming engine to circulate the oil is FAR BETTER than
letting it stand; both for the cylinders and the famous cam and tappets.

If it's going to set long it needs to be protected not ground run
according to the engine manufacturers literature.

If I owned it and was not flying at least weekly, you're damned
right I'd ground run it! Not very long, but enough to circulate the oil and

If you are going to ground run it you want to bring it up to operating
temp. It's the short runs that not only don't evaporate much of
anything they put a lot more *stuff* into the oil as the cold engine
isn't running as efficient as a warm one and the byproducts can
condense inside.

Find a good clean spot on the ramp, let the engine warm up normally.
Then stand on the brakes and wind 'er up for a prolonged run. Of
course then makes the neighbors unhappy.

at least get the temp needle off the peg. If, for any reason I was unable
to run the engine frequently, I would certainly place dessicant packages in
the intake(s), exhaust(s), and crankcase breather.

They usually put desiccants in the plugs and plug off the intake,
exhaust and breathers.

Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a
note on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".

3) Yep, I agree that's an old mechanics tales as well. OTOH, any reason
to fly might bew a good reason.

Might be but both Lycombing and Continental subscribe to it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

As to the bridge, apparently the Danes and Sweedes haven't shelled one
another across the straights for so long they've forgotten about that. ;-)
In any case, small amounts of surface rust are trivial for a structure like
a bridge; but seriously debilitating inside an engine!

Peter

On 23 Apr 2006 02:18:53 -0700, wrote:

Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that

Get a good engine block and cylinder head heater. Wrap up the entire
cowl with plenty of good thermal blankets and use an engine heater to
keep the oil dry.

situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I

Again we disagree. If I don't use the engine heater the oil will be
almost milky within the first five hours. Using the heater it's still
clear to around the 20 hour mark. OTOH my engine has no oil filter so
the oil changes come at 25 hours. In 25 hours the oil doesn't go down
enough to hardly see on the dip stick, so it's using less than a pint
in 25 hours and is almost at TBO. BTW it has a wet vacuum pump.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

"Roger" wrote

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

I feel your pain! g

NC is like that, at times, also.

Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the
garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Roger" wrote

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

I feel your pain! g

NC is like that, at times, also.

Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the
garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.
--
Jim in NC

I am currently in Florida. However, I'll keep your solution in mind in case
of a move to a cooler climate.

Thanks for the advice.
Peter

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:36:42 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:24:07 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

I just watched a program about the huge Oresund bridge between Denmark
and Sweden, and there was a segment about how the corrosion problem for

the bridge was dealt with. Instead of painting, they use sealed
compartments that have the air humidity kept below 60%. This they said
eliminates corrosion. This started me thinking about the corrosion we
aircraft owners are told to guard against, since I have personally been

told by an overhaul shop, that half of all the engines he sees that
need work, need it because of corrosion. There are several "facts" that

I am beginning to question as to their validity. The ones that come to
mind a

1) You have to get the oil up to 180 deg F or the water in the oil
won't evaporate.


2) Starting and ground running the engine for a minute or so is the
"worst" thing you can possibly do.


3) Flying for an hour will "clean" the oil (or at least evaporate the
water, preventing acid formation) so that it doesn't turn to acid and
dissolve the engine while sitting idle.


----------------snip-----------

Blue Skies
Rusty

1) In automobiles years ago, the standard assertion was that you had to
get the engine temp up to 160 degrees for the water to evaporate from the
oil. As it happened, that was actually measuring water temp. 160 degrees
was simply the most common coolant thermostat temperature in those days. So
if the same jack asses are still breathing in and out, they are probably
claiming that 205 degrees is mandatory today.
About all I know for sure about water water condensing into much of
anything is:
a) it almost never happens inside a garage or hangar,

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

Current temp is 50F) The weather for the area says 85% but it's
raining with light fog. Of course the briefing I printed out at 3:00
AM says visibility 6, 5000 sct, 10,000 bkn with temp 4 in light rain
and thunderstorms with 5,000 sct.
It's now starting to clear from the west and MOP is showing Vis 10,
1000 sct, 1500 bkn. Most of the afternoon was 1 and 500.

b) an engine covered with plastic and sitting on the ground will
accumulate MASSIVE amounts of water,

We get the same thing in our hangars on the airplanes and engines.
If I went out to the hangar today I'd find the plane dripping. The
temp is dropping slowly. It'll be near the upper 30's tonight.
Opening the cowl would find water droplets on the cylinders and
crankcase.

This is in a well ventilated metal hangar with a concrete floor.

c) a small light object such as a medicine vial with a snap type lid will
accumulate water outdoors in the shade--such as under a patio roof.
As to evaporation, warmer is faster; but if the ambient humidity is
100%, a surprisingly small temperature rise (10 or 20 degrees IIRC) above
ambient will bring the relative humidity inside the engine below 50%.

Also the engine breathes in and out with temperature changes. So
cooling not only raised the relative humidity inside, it brings in
more cool, damp air.

2) I am not an aircraft and engine mechanic. However, I am confident
that running a Lycoming engine to circulate the oil is FAR BETTER than
letting it stand; both for the cylinders and the famous cam and tappets.

If it's going to set long it needs to be protected not ground run
according to the engine manufacturers literature.

If I owned it and was not flying at least weekly, you're damned
right I'd ground run it! Not very long, but enough to circulate the oil and

If you are going to ground run it you want to bring it up to operating
temp. It's the short runs that not only don't evaporate much of
anything they put a lot more *stuff* into the oil as the cold engine
isn't running as efficient as a warm one and the byproducts can
condense inside.

Find a good clean spot on the ramp, let the engine warm up normally.
Then stand on the brakes and wind 'er up for a prolonged run. Of
course then makes the neighbors unhappy.

at least get the temp needle off the peg. If, for any reason I was unable
to run the engine frequently, I would certainly place dessicant packages in
the intake(s), exhaust(s), and crankcase breather.

They usually put desiccants in the plugs and plug off the intake,
exhaust and breathers.

Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a
note on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".

3) Yep, I agree that's an old mechanics tales as well. OTOH, any reason
to fly might bew a good reason.

Might be but both Lycombing and Continental subscribe to it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

As to the bridge, apparently the Danes and Sweedes haven't shelled one
another across the straights for so long they've forgotten about that. ;-)
In any case, small amounts of surface rust are trivial for a structure like
a bridge; but seriously debilitating inside an engine!

Peter

If you feel the need to get the oil moving in a stored engine, crank
it over with the fuel and mags shut off untill full oil pressure is
acheived, then recharge the battery. Do NOT ground run for short
periods without getting the oil temperature up to dry it out.
Particularly important with top-cam engines, as the cams and tappets
are very prone to condensation induced corrosion failures. And worse
with Synthetic oils than standard petro oils.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

wrote:
Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that
situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I
could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

You don't really need to fly it once a week. Once a month will do as
long as it gets an hour or so. I bought a '68 Cardinal in '89 that had
never even had a cylinder removed since new (original unbroken Lycoming
duck egg blue paint at the cylinder bases). I went back through the
logs and found that while it only had 1100 hours in 21 years, it had
never gone more than a 40 day period without flying in all that time.

I sold it to a guy in '93 who still owns it, keeps it outside and it
STILL have never even had a cylinder removed. He only puts about 20 or
30 hours a year on it but makes sure it never sits more than a month.

The vast majority of private aircraft that need tops after 1000 hrs
often go 3 to 6 months at a time without flying.

John

("Roger" wrote)
Go into Pioneer Airport and look at the antiques that have the engines
preserved. I've forgotten the term, but at any rate each prop has a note
on it that says "Do not turn prop. Engine has been preserved".


Pickled? Fogged?


Montblack

Morgans wrote:

"Roger" wrote

We must live in different climates.
Here in Central Michigan it's not unusual to find the airplane
"dripping" wet with temperature changes.

I have an garage attached to the house. It's not unusual to find the
cars sweating with temperature and humidity changes. I had to work on
the garden tractor today and the engine is wet from the humidity and
temperature changes. (It's been 100% since last night and rained most
of the day.

I feel your pain! g

NC is like that, at times, also.

Want a good piece of advise? Insulate your garage, put up good insulated
garage doors, and with good seals installed. Run one 8" duct into the
garage from your central heat and air. It makes a huge difference at not
all that much expense.
--
Jim in NC

That's good advice...