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Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 14th 21, 04:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

At Dan: Landing at Zorro Ranch no big deal.

True dat, Bob, buy reread my last sentence (quoted below).

Dan
5J

On 4/13/21 5:06 PM, BobWa43 wrote:
Had that just been
desert and the engine not started, things would have been very inconvenient.

  #42  
Old April 14th 21, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders had no "Plan B" if they went into the hills and did not find lift. The motorgliders had a "Plan B". Yes, Plan B had risk, but less risk of landing out than the pure gliders. Isn't that a big part of the attraction of motorgliders?
What contest was this, and when? Why are you certain the motorglider pilots were actually
risking a potentially fatal crash if their motor didn't start? Or, could it have been just a
very lengthy retrieve that they avoided if the motor did start?

Crashing if the motor does not start is not part any "plan" of the motorglider pilots I know.
Once again, the attraction of self-launching motorgliders is launching when and where the pilot
chooses, and the greater certainty of getting home if the weather is misjudged.

If the motorglider offers a real competitive advantage, the top ten pilots in National contests
should be flying almost entirely motorgliders. I'm not aware of any study showing that, but
it'd be an interesting one to do, and shouldn't take much time or effort.

Another interesting exercise would be to ask each of the top ten pilots in several contests why
are/aren't they flying a motorglider.
--

Eric, you are making progress, yes, the sustainer and the self start both compensate for misjudgment, I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.

But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #43  
Old April 14th 21, 08:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Again, you *assume* there is a "completely different mindset" between motor and non-motorglider pilots. Your assumption is incorrect for the vast majority of motorglider pilots. We know this because we have flown - and some continue to fly - non-motorgliders. The difference in mindset is *only* in considering the inconvenience of a retrieve, *not* in the safety of an out landing which might occur with either. You do not know this because you have never flown motorgliders. Does it affect OLC scores? Probably, because a purist may shy away from a direction or distance that involves a greater chance of a retrieve, and they don't want the inconvenience. If either pilot flies low over unlandable terrain, the result for either - eventually - will be the same. The purist can mitigate the inconvenience by hiring a crew for the possible retrieve, and as I have pointed out in the past this is more cost effective than buying a motorglider, with the same result. But rather than paying the money (for either the motor or the crew) a few purists simply whinge on about it. You made your choice to save money and buy a motorless glider and not have a crew for retrieves. Live with it. In real competition (as distinct from OLC) a motorglider is at a disadvantage.

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 11:35:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders had no "Plan B" if they went into the hills and did not find lift. The motorgliders had a "Plan B". Yes, Plan B had risk, but less risk of landing out than the pure gliders. Isn't that a big part of the attraction of motorgliders?
What contest was this, and when? Why are you certain the motorglider pilots were actually
risking a potentially fatal crash if their motor didn't start? Or, could it have been just a
very lengthy retrieve that they avoided if the motor did start?

Crashing if the motor does not start is not part any "plan" of the motorglider pilots I know.
Once again, the attraction of self-launching motorgliders is launching when and where the pilot
chooses, and the greater certainty of getting home if the weather is misjudged.

If the motorglider offers a real competitive advantage, the top ten pilots in National contests
should be flying almost entirely motorgliders. I'm not aware of any study showing that, but
it'd be an interesting one to do, and shouldn't take much time or effort.

Another interesting exercise would be to ask each of the top ten pilots in several contests why
are/aren't they flying a motorglider.
--
Eric, you are making progress, yes, the sustainer and the self start both compensate for misjudgment, I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.

But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #44  
Old April 14th 21, 08:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

wrote on 4/14/2021 11:35 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders h I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.

But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob


A pilot's "mindset" differs widely, depending the personal circumstances; eg, between a 1-26
pilot and a Nimbus 4 pilot, between me in my Phoenix and me in my ASH26E; between the pilot
with an eager crew and the pilot that's crewless (and not sure anyone will come get him);
between the pilot that thinks a $200 towplane retrieve is a super bargain and the pilot that
can hardly afford a 1500' tow. What's disturbing to a lot of us is you won't recognize all the
variety in soaring circumstances, and focus unnecessarily, and often rudely, on a single
factor: the motor. "I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset
difference", that the mindset differences within a group (motored or towed) can vary more than
the differences between the two groups.

I can't explain it any better, so I'm done. If you have questions about operating a motorglider
safely and enjoyably, please read my Guide (link below). If you still have questions, email me
at

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #45  
Old April 14th 21, 09:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 3:58:20 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 11:35 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders h I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.
But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob

A pilot's "mindset" differs widely, depending the personal circumstances; eg, between a 1-26
pilot and a Nimbus 4 pilot, between me in my Phoenix and me in my ASH26E; between the pilot
with an eager crew and the pilot that's crewless (and not sure anyone will come get him);
between the pilot that thinks a $200 towplane retrieve is a super bargain and the pilot that
can hardly afford a 1500' tow. What's disturbing to a lot of us is you won't recognize all the
variety in soaring circumstances, and focus unnecessarily, and often rudely, on a single
factor: the motor. "I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset
difference", that the mindset differences within a group (motored or towed) can vary more than
the differences between the two groups.

I can't explain it any better, so I'm done. If you have questions about operating a motorglider
safely and enjoyably, please read my Guide (link below). If you still have questions, email me
at
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Eric, I am going to miss you. Old Bob
  #46  
Old April 14th 21, 11:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
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Posts: 377
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Wednesday, 14 April 2021 at 04:46:05 UTC+1, 5Z wrote:

Actually, the OLC has created a rule to "penalize" motorglider pilots in the speed league. One must begin a soaring flight within 15 km of the takeoff airport.

At California City we would often tow to the hills about 20 km away, so had to remember to come back within 15km after getting some altitude in order to score. Folks at Williams, CA, tow much farther, so don't get to compete in the sped league.

5Z


I find that a strange rule. It certainly should not differentiate between motor gliders and pure gliders - pure glider pilots can and do tow to remote start points. But why differentiate between a pilot who tows or motors to a better soaring location, and a pilot who trailers the glider nearer to the better soaring and launches from a closer airport?

Having said that, anecdotally I will mention a friend who motored upwind in his ASG 31 before soaring conditions started, and finished downwind, in a successful attempt to achieve the UK Free 3 turnpoint distance record. Very creative, but it could have been done with an aerotow. Incidentally, he dropped out of a competition in order to attempt the record flight.

I just looked at the list of UK record holders. Of 19 records achieved since 2000, every one was achieved in a motorglider. I think that is more of a reflection of the gliders record breakers buy than of their mindset. In several cases the pilots were setting records in pure gliders before they bought motor gliders.

Mark Burton
  #47  
Old April 15th 21, 12:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 11:46:05 PM UTC-4, 5Z wrote:
On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...
I'm having trouble understanding your concerns, because these issues haven been worked on (at
least in the US) for at least the 25 years I've owned a motorglider, and the current rules
reflect the consensus of pilots flying competitions, whether it's Regionals, Nationals, or even
SSA records. The OLC doesn't have separate classes, either. There doesn't seem to be any need
to "resist the idea of a separate competition group", because I'm not aware of any formal (or
informal, either) attempts to change the competition classes into motor/non-motor.

Actually, the OLC has created a rule to "penalize" motorglider pilots in the speed league. One must begin a soaring flight within 15 km of the takeoff airport.

At California City we would often tow to the hills about 20 km away, so had to remember to come back within 15km after getting some altitude in order to score. Folks at Williams, CA, tow much farther, so don't get to compete in the sped league.

5Z

So you had to backtrack 5 km, 3.1 miles and that was a big disadvantage, and you are flying a 50/1 sailplane ?
  #48  
Old April 16th 21, 02:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Just to be clear. Have YOU ever owned and flown a motorglider or sustainer? Or have your opinions been formed with no personal knowledge.
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 11:35:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders had no "Plan B" if they went into the hills and did not find lift. The motorgliders had a "Plan B". Yes, Plan B had risk, but less risk of landing out than the pure gliders. Isn't that a big part of the attraction of motorgliders?
What contest was this, and when? Why are you certain the motorglider pilots were actually
risking a potentially fatal crash if their motor didn't start? Or, could it have been just a
very lengthy retrieve that they avoided if the motor did start?

Crashing if the motor does not start is not part any "plan" of the motorglider pilots I know.
Once again, the attraction of self-launching motorgliders is launching when and where the pilot
chooses, and the greater certainty of getting home if the weather is misjudged.

If the motorglider offers a real competitive advantage, the top ten pilots in National contests
should be flying almost entirely motorgliders. I'm not aware of any study showing that, but
it'd be an interesting one to do, and shouldn't take much time or effort.

Another interesting exercise would be to ask each of the top ten pilots in several contests why
are/aren't they flying a motorglider.
--
Eric, you are making progress, yes, the sustainer and the self start both compensate for misjudgment, I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.

But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #49  
Old April 16th 21, 03:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 16, 2021 at 9:26:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Just to be clear. Have YOU ever owned and flown a motorglider or sustainer? Or have your opinions been formed with no personal knowledge.
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 11:35:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders had no "Plan B" if they went into the hills and did not find lift. The motorgliders had a "Plan B". Yes, Plan B had risk, but less risk of landing out than the pure gliders. Isn't that a big part of the attraction of motorgliders?
What contest was this, and when? Why are you certain the motorglider pilots were actually
risking a potentially fatal crash if their motor didn't start? Or, could it have been just a
very lengthy retrieve that they avoided if the motor did start?

Crashing if the motor does not start is not part any "plan" of the motorglider pilots I know.
Once again, the attraction of self-launching motorgliders is launching when and where the pilot
chooses, and the greater certainty of getting home if the weather is misjudged.

If the motorglider offers a real competitive advantage, the top ten pilots in National contests
should be flying almost entirely motorgliders. I'm not aware of any study showing that, but
it'd be an interesting one to do, and shouldn't take much time or effort.

Another interesting exercise would be to ask each of the top ten pilots in several contests why
are/aren't they flying a motorglider.
--
Eric, you are making progress, yes, the sustainer and the self start both compensate for misjudgment, I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.
But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Jonathan, YES, I have flown a motorglider! Logged over 3K hours in excellent glass ships, flown places that even you MGP's would never go even with a motor, 1983, documented 25 miles offshore out over the Atlantic. I guess you MGP's will be shocked if I buy a self launch. Old Bob
  #50  
Old April 16th 21, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Jonathan - having flown a motorglider, and having flown one cross country a few thousand miles, are different things. The latter would qualify him as having some experience. Just tooling around the airport once or twice doesn't count, certainly not enough to expound collectively about "mindset". Old Bob has been a prolific poster on OLC over the last couple of years, all in an ASW27 and 24 from the same airport, none in a motorglider, and most of the flights 200km which out west we would consider a local flight.

On Friday, April 16, 2021 at 6:26:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Just to be clear. Have YOU ever owned and flown a motorglider or sustainer? Or have your opinions been formed with no personal knowledge.
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 11:35:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 9:29:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 4/14/2021 5:17 AM:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:08:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote on 4/13/2021 6:32 PM:
The risk was the high chance of injury or death if the lift did not pan out . The pure gliders had no "Plan B" if they went into the hills and did not find lift. The motorgliders had a "Plan B". Yes, Plan B had risk, but less risk of landing out than the pure gliders. Isn't that a big part of the attraction of motorgliders?
What contest was this, and when? Why are you certain the motorglider pilots were actually
risking a potentially fatal crash if their motor didn't start? Or, could it have been just a
very lengthy retrieve that they avoided if the motor did start?

Crashing if the motor does not start is not part any "plan" of the motorglider pilots I know.
Once again, the attraction of self-launching motorgliders is launching when and where the pilot
chooses, and the greater certainty of getting home if the weather is misjudged.

If the motorglider offers a real competitive advantage, the top ten pilots in National contests
should be flying almost entirely motorgliders. I'm not aware of any study showing that, but
it'd be an interesting one to do, and shouldn't take much time or effort.

Another interesting exercise would be to ask each of the top ten pilots in several contests why
are/aren't they flying a motorglider.
--
Eric, you are making progress, yes, the sustainer and the self start both compensate for misjudgment, I would consider that a pretty big advantage over a purist. The purist cannot compensate for that type of mistake, we must deal with the situation at hand and at times suffer the consequences. The purist flies with a different mindset, reality sets in real quick and making decisions on should or should not has a different price to pay.
But, you are not making progress. :^)

No one disputes the convenience of having a motor to avoid landing out - that's the #2 reason
for getting a motorglider, as the motorglider pilots here (including me) have repeatedly
pointed out. What I was discussing above is the claim that it is a "huge" or "pretty big"
advantage for contest flying.

What I'm trying to understand is your reasons for making an issue of the motor, when you don't
fly contests (AFAIK). The US contest rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have
separate record classes for them, so why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't
care, and are just happy to see someone show up at the airport and fly with us? Are you
trolling, lonely, uninformed, or ?

What I have pointed out is that there is a completely different mindset between the purist and the motorglider pilot, it kind of baffles me that so many MGP's are in disagreement with that theory. Very early on I stated that there should be consideration changes between MG vs the purist in OLC scoring. Not long ago a MGP flew with us and had engine problems, unfortunately or fortunately I was there to provide a tow. After the flight the MPG told me that they had to fly with a different mindset, I found that to be a very honest statement, actually I was impressed by the performance of the self launch glider.
Now I realize that you and J6 have real issues with my opinion, I hope that I have somewhat made you more cognizant of the mindset difference. When you make that trip to Florida please come to Vero Beach and fly with us old guys. Old Bob

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

 




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