See and Avoid applies to both IFR and VFR

After the cold front passed last night, my instrument student and I took off
VFR from FCI, about 11 miles from Richmond Intl (just outside of Class C).
We had just departed 33, climbing though 1200MSL when I spotted traffic in
the distance to the west. On this particular evening, Potomac approach was
bringing in IFR arrivals to RIC down to 2000 right over FCI. The traffic
pattern at FCI is 1200. Upon spotting the traffic we leveled off at about
1400, and turned towards the north. Meanwhile, we just switched over from
CTAF to the Potomac Approach facility, were the controller was pointing us
out to the MD80, who only saw us on TCAS. After the traffic was no longer a
factor, we climbed to 2000, proceeded on course, and requested advisories
from Approach.

After the controller gave us a squawk code, he chewed us our for not calling
him sooner. "You should call us before you reach about 1200 ft because we
have arrivals from the west and you caused a MD80 to get a TCAS RA." I
suspect our initial climb out of the pattern was interpreted by TCAS as
being on a collision course.

I replied, "Roger, we had the traffic in sight and changed our course
accordingly."

The controller replied "fine, but I don't know you had him in sight. Call
us earlier next time."

me: "Roger."

Conditions were good VFR. I think the controller was annoyed that the MD80
had to change his course to avoid traffic. I don't think it's reasonable to
expect us to be contacting approach before we leave the pattern in VFR
conditions. I wasn't going to argue that over the frequency.

Points to Ponder-
-Always scan for traffic
-Follow the Right-of-way rules (my student initially wanted to turn to the
left, but the traffic was proceeding directly towards us)
-ATC knows how to control traffic, but they're not pilots (usually) so they
may not consider operations that don't involve them, i.e. non-towered
pattern operations.
-Airline crews need to practice see and avoid in VFR conditions even if
they're IFR, especially when proceeding over an airport traffic pattern at
1800 AGL.

After the controller gave us a squawk code, he chewed us our for not
calling him sooner. "You should call us before you reach about 1200
ft because we have arrivals from the west and you caused a MD80 to
get a TCAS RA."

That's ridiculous. They vector traffic 11 miles out right over the
uncontrolled field at nearly TPA and he yells at you for "not calling him
sooner"? He has not a clue some aircraft don't even have radios?

Seems to me HE caused the TCAS RA and was trying to shift the blame.

It's amazing how they drag these airliners in on these loooong low
approaches; it seems unnecessarily risky to me.

Basically my thoughts. If you're going to vector arrivals at 800 above the
TPA of a busy non-towered airport, it should be suprising that your IFR's
will need to deviate for traffic. IFR traffic does not have right-of-way
over VFR traffic.

Normally they're at 3000 crossing FCI and not generally a factor to pattern
ops.

Heck, if I was crossing over an airport 800 ft above the TPA, I'd probably
make a call on CTAF. How come he wasn't on MY frequency?

"John Harlow" wrote in message
...
After the controller gave us a squawk code, he chewed us our for not
calling him sooner. "You should call us before you reach about 1200
ft because we have arrivals from the west and you caused a MD80 to
get a TCAS RA."

That's ridiculous. They vector traffic 11 miles out right over the
uncontrolled field at nearly TPA and he yells at you for "not calling him
sooner"? He has not a clue some aircraft don't even have radios?

Seems to me HE caused the TCAS RA and was trying to shift the blame.

It's amazing how they drag these airliners in on these loooong low
approaches; it seems unnecessarily risky to me.

Brad Z wrote:

The controller replied "fine, but I don't know you had him in sight.
Call us earlier next time."

"Wilco, cancel flight following at this time" then motor along VFR at
2000...all the while wearing an evil grin.

No, you handled it well and the controller was obviously wrong for giving
you any grief whatsoever. If you were there VFR not even talking to him,
he'd've have an even worse time. He needs to re-evaluate his position and
be thankful that you even came on frequency.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:47:10 GMT, "Brad Z" wrote:

The controller replied "fine, but I don't know you had him in sight. Call
us earlier next time."

me: "Roger."

Conditions were good VFR. I think the controller was annoyed that the MD80
had to change his course to avoid traffic. I don't think it's reasonable to
expect us to be contacting approach before we leave the pattern in VFR
conditions. I wasn't going to argue that over the frequency.

Unless you're entering Class B, C or D airspace, as you obviously know,
there's no requirement to contact ATC at all.

I think you should have a talk with the supervisor or QA person at that ATC
facility. It would seem that this particular controller's expectations are
inappropriate, and could lead to some bad outcomes.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Brad Z" wrote
I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to be contacting approach
before we leave the pattern in VFR conditions.

As a controller, and pilot, I agree. You did nothing wrong here. Even
if you had an IFR clearance and release and you were VFR dodging
traffic in the pattern on departure, you can't be expected to just leave
CTAF and blast through everyone else just because you're IFR.

I wasn't going to argue that over the frequency.

Good idea. You'll rarely win, it's better to call in later if you feel
the need. But in most cases you'll just get a supervisor who rarely
works traffic and he will either smooth it over with you and never
say anything to the controller - which solves nothing. Or he'll be
the kind who has it out for pilots and grill you on regs or want a
tape pulled just looking for anything to bust you on. I've had both
types of supes. I used Potomac alot on a couple of days recently,
mostly IFR with multiple approaches, including Dulles. I was
pleasantly surprised by their service, that's why I was interested
in this thread. I worked with multiple sectors (freqs) at different
days and times, so I got different crews. I didnt go in with high
expectations with the ADIZ and all, and being a relatively new
facility I'm sure theres bugs to iron out. But they were one of the
better facilities on my 5,000nm trip, and I got flight following or
was IFR the entire time, so I worked with lots of facilities on
that trip.

Anyway, that sounds like a dangerous procedure bringing them
in like that, and like someone else said, I may have just said
"cancel request" and leave frequency. But don't turn off
the radio, you might be surprised to hear him ask you NOT
to leave and come back, hehe. He doesn't want RA's going off
with his traffic if he can help it.

Chris

File a Nasa report.. wont hurt anything.. and IF a tape review causes
someone to get a hard-on for you.. then it may help you as well.

Then call the sup for the facility and ask for clarification.. and if
that is a practice that they want routinely then they need to issue a
letter or notice.

Dave

Brad Z wrote:

After the cold front passed last night, my instrument student and I took off
VFR from FCI, about 11 miles from Richmond Intl (just outside of Class C).
We had just departed 33, climbing though 1200MSL when I spotted traffic in
the distance to the west. On this particular evening, Potomac approach was
bringing in IFR arrivals to RIC down to 2000 right over FCI. The traffic
pattern at FCI is 1200. Upon spotting the traffic we leveled off at about
1400, and turned towards the north. Meanwhile, we just switched over from
CTAF to the Potomac Approach facility, were the controller was pointing us
out to the MD80, who only saw us on TCAS. After the traffic was no longer a
factor, we climbed to 2000, proceeded on course, and requested advisories
from Approach.

After the controller gave us a squawk code, he chewed us our for not calling
him sooner. "You should call us before you reach about 1200 ft because we
have arrivals from the west and you caused a MD80 to get a TCAS RA." I
suspect our initial climb out of the pattern was interpreted by TCAS as
being on a collision course.

I replied, "Roger, we had the traffic in sight and changed our course
accordingly."

The controller replied "fine, but I don't know you had him in sight. Call
us earlier next time."

me: "Roger."

Conditions were good VFR. I think the controller was annoyed that the MD80
had to change his course to avoid traffic. I don't think it's reasonable to
expect us to be contacting approach before we leave the pattern in VFR
conditions. I wasn't going to argue that over the frequency.

Points to Ponder-
-Always scan for traffic
-Follow the Right-of-way rules (my student initially wanted to turn to the
left, but the traffic was proceeding directly towards us)
-ATC knows how to control traffic, but they're not pilots (usually) so they
may not consider operations that don't involve them, i.e. non-towered
pattern operations.
-Airline crews need to practice see and avoid in VFR conditions even if
they're IFR, especially when proceeding over an airport traffic pattern at
1800 AGL.

In article ONwJc.61657$WX.41886@attbi_s51,
Brad Z wrote:
After the controller gave us a squawk code, he chewed us our for not calling
him sooner. "You should call us before you reach about 1200 ft because we
have arrivals from the west and you caused a MD80 to get a TCAS RA."

"Roger, what are your operating initials so I can ask for you by name?"

hehe

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Brad Z" wrote in message news:ONwJc.61657$WX.41886@attbi_s51...
After the cold front passed last night, my instrument student and I took off
VFR from FCI, about 11 miles from Richmond Intl (just outside of Class C).
We had just departed 33, climbing though 1200MSL when I spotted traffic in
the distance to the west. On this particular evening, Potomac approach was
bringing in IFR arrivals to RIC down to 2000 right over FCI. The traffic
pattern at FCI is 1200. Upon spotting the traffic we leveled off at about
1400, and turned towards the north. Meanwhile, we just switched over from
CTAF to the Potomac Approach facility, were the controller was pointing us
out to the MD80, who only saw us on TCAS. After the traffic was no longer a
factor, we climbed to 2000, proceeded on course, and requested advisories
from Approach.

After the controller gave us a squawk code, he chewed us our for not calling
him sooner. "You should call us before you reach about 1200 ft because we
have arrivals from the west and you caused a MD80 to get a TCAS RA." I
suspect our initial climb out of the pattern was interpreted by TCAS as
being on a collision course.

Brad,

Kudos to you for not getting into it on frequency, but IMO I would
strongly consider filing an ASRS on this, not because YOU did anything
wrong, but because the controller needs to understand that *if he is
going to vector IFR traffic 800 ft above a non-towered airport, the
IFR traffic *is* going to get TCAS alerts and need to deviate. Around
here, at least, it's pretty standard to overfly the airport 500 ft
above TPA then descend to TPA.

And you're absolutely right, IFR traffic does not have priority over
VFR traffic in VMC -- see and avoid applies to both.

Sounds to me as though some controllers need to be educated, and I
hear that the ASRS forms really do get reviewed.

You might consider calling Approach, too, though I'm not sure how
much good that does long after the event.

Cheers,
Sydney

Snowbird wrote:


but because the controller needs to understand that *if he is
going to vector IFR traffic 800 ft above a non-towered airport,


There's no vectoring going on 800 feet above an uncontrolled field. The
MVA is always at least 1000 agl.