Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 8:39:50 AM UTC-7, Sarah wrote:
On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-5, Muttley wrote:
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=NnhoE7G68YM

Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?

Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

Instead of bug wipers they need window wipers!

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 11:09:08 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the
pattern".* What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower
the gear, turn base, and land.* There's no pattern (for me, at
least) when flying that low.* Pick a a touchdown spot early, on
airport or off, and work the lift until you feel that your touchdown
spot will soon become out of reach.* Maybe you'll drift to a
location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe not.* The
comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
response to your input.

This is a practice that may work for you, but is anywhere from a little unsafe to really dangerous for others.
How does the guy flying a regular pattern deal with these antics?
There are many good reasons to know when to stop soaring and start landing, the top of the list being you are much less likely to crash.
Dan may make it work for him but I'm on record as saying it is bad practice and sets a terrible example.
UH

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 4:39:50 PM UTC+1, Sarah wrote:
On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-5, Muttley wrote:
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=NnhoE7G68YM

Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?

Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

Yes this Launch is from Inch Beach but I think in a KA8.

Bruno

Not everything can be said in a simple paragraph; there are nuances,
pop-ups, what-ifs, etc., and there's not enough time to mention all of
them here. What I'm talking about is skill, practice, observation,
planning, and, most of all, judgement, and apparently from some of the
attitudes I read here, there's not enough of the latter.

Making a low save away from the airport, there are not the pattern
issues mentioned. This is my field and I'll do what I want. ...Unless
there's another glider also needing to land. Most often if that's the
case, the other pilot also has some of what it takes to be a safe glider
pilot or he wouldn't be in the same situation (stretching his wings) so
I trust him and assume he trusts me not to put each other into danger.

If low at the airport and trying to make a save, I'll consider pattern
issues. Is it a small strip? A single runway? Other traffic in the
pattern or in the area? Am I positioned for opposite traffic? Do the
winds permit a safe landing from that position? Will there be room? I
could go on with what-ifs for quite some time, but I hope you get the
idea. Where I fly there are two wide runways, each approximately 7,000'
long and very little traffic. Takeoff staging is about 1,700' from the
threshold of the runway and landings routinely exit on the exceptionally
wide (500' at the narrowest) staging area behind the launch. There are
also two parallel taxiways to land on, if necessary.

So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice? It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual situations
rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every situation. I'll
go on record stating that exercising flexibility and judgement is safer
than fixed protocol every time.

On 10/11/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 11:09:08 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the
pattern". What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower
the gear, turn base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at
least) when flying that low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on
airport or off, and work the lift until you feel that your touchdown
spot will soon become out of reach. Maybe you'll drift to a
location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe not. The
comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
response to your input.
This is a practice that may work for you, but is anywhere from a little unsafe to really dangerous for others.
How does the guy flying a regular pattern deal with these antics?
There are many good reasons to know when to stop soaring and start landing, the top of the list being you are much less likely to crash.
Dan may make it work for him but I'm on record as saying it is bad practice and sets a terrible example.
UH





--
Dan, 5J

kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/10 at 01:54:

Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one
end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We
would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short,
and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are
cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have
looked at it and done the math...).

But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that
a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

if it's this location:

,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3

= then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:

,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3

About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.

We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)

Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.

regards
Werner

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 2:19:37 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:

if it's this location:

,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3

= then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:

,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3

About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.

We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)

Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.

regards
Werner

Werner,

You found us! Yes, we could use 2600 of the current runway for taking off (the threshold is displaced for landing over the road, that doesn't apply for takeoffs). We have looked at that - and so far the consensus it that it just isn't worth the effort.

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl. Arrggghh!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) - maybe we can get some interest going. I for one would love to have a winch option!

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Cheers,

Kirk

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 11:06:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice?* It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual
situations rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every
situation.*

The point that I was trying to make in my original post is that pilots who make their first 100 or so launches with a winch, gain experience with low level flying and develop instincts to do it relatively safely (the record suggests). People like me who trained with 3000 foot tows and 'pattern tows' do not get low level 'climb out' experience and our instincts for low level flying are rather underdeveloped. There not much deliberation and weighing of options when releasing off a 'pattern tow' at the 'Initial Point'.

The fact that you feel so comfortable at low altitude suggests that you picked up the skills to do it at some point in your extensive flying career.

My SOP of committing to landing at 1000-1300 AGL means that I don't have to rely on instincts that I don't have. Sure it would be better if I was more comfortable with doing lower 'saves'. Maybe that will come in time. I get a fair bit of practice scraping for lift at fairly low AGL over local ridges, but I have the option of skipping out over the valley and entering the pattern at 1000 AGL. It's all relative. I've seen one of the local old timers, circling extremely low above the saddle on the ridge... but he is like 85... and he has a wife on standby for his notoriously frequent retrieves.

Didn't somebody have a winch down near St.Louis? I doubt you'll find a Demo winch in the midwest. Cross Country up in Faribault might come to you but it will cost a mint. What you might do is form a group to go and do some site visits and clinics. You might ask them to simulate your field length. No matter what you discover you won't change the minds of the "experts" but you will learn a lot and you'll be suprised at some of those who do convert. Our club started a project about 2 years ago and we will be taking delivery of our winch in a month or so. Our runway is about 3000ft long.
It can be done...
-Doug

I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!

If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.


John

Bruno. That is really cool!!!! Thx for sharing!

Sean
7T