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Hardest approach flown so far



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 9th 07, 12:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Viperdoc[_4_]
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Posts: 243
Default Hardest approach flown so far

The weather, via ATIS and NEXRAD was above minimums. So, putting the gear
down earlier to help the descent probably would have been an option. I would
say on recollection that the layer was around 4,000 feet thick, and week
broke out during the approach.

However, I was concerned that lowering the gear and having all of the drag
plus possibly getting it covered in ice and maybe not be able to retract
would significantly rob climb performance if needed. I didn't want to add a
gear problem or get stuck with a lack of power just in case.

You do have a good point that I should have considered.


"vincent norris" wrote in message
...
Even though it's the capitol (is it capital?) of the state,


The building is a capitol, the town is the capital.

Finally, before the last fix we broke out into VMC, with the valley

below
and the airport in sight, still several thousand feet high. We circled
once, and then landed without difficulty.


If you had obtained WX and knew you would break out into VMC, then I'd say
you handled it prudently; otoh, if you knew the ceiling was well above
minimums, why were you concerned about having to do a missed approach with
the gear down?

vince norris



  #12  
Old July 9th 07, 09:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
rps
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Posts: 19
Default Hardest approach flown so far


Viperdoc wrote:
Recently, on a long cross country from Portland, OR to Wisconsin, we stopped
at Helena, MT for a gas and pit stop.

snip
Once on the loc BC, there are several step down fixes, but since we were
given the approach clearance several thousand feet high, I had a hard time
reaching the DME fixes at a low enough altitude.

snip

It was a great learning experience, but I'm not sure what to have done
differently. I already had the approach flaps out, and contemplated putting
down the gear to help the descent, but hesitated doing this in icing
conditions (what if I needed to pull up the gear again for some reason
during the approach covered in ice?)

snip

I think one of the approaches to this airport was discussed in IFR
Magazine (maybe it was IFR Refresher) some time ago. As I recall, the
article discussed a pilot who decided to do a 360 to lose some
altitude and hit some granite. Because of the terrain, the slam dunk
is all you've got there, I believe.

  #13  
Old July 9th 07, 11:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Peter Clark
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Posts: 538
Default Hardest approach flown so far

On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:50:31 -0500, "Viperdoc"
wrote:

There is no radar, and the final approach course is surrounded by mountains,
so I would think circling would have been outside of the protected area of
the localizer. Also, circling in turbulence and icing is not a very
appealing option. I was told by center to intercept the DME arc, but was not
given final approach clearance until established on the localizer BC.


Once you were established on the arc could you ask to descend to the
published altitudes for the arc itself?
  #14  
Old July 10th 07, 06:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Everett M. Greene[_2_]
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Posts: 40
Default Hardest approach flown so far

rps writes:
Viperdoc wrote:
Recently, on a long cross country from Portland, OR to Wisconsin, we stopped
at Helena, MT for a gas and pit stop.

snip
Once on the loc BC, there are several step down fixes, but since we were
given the approach clearance several thousand feet high, I had a hard time
reaching the DME fixes at a low enough altitude.

snip

It was a great learning experience, but I'm not sure what to have done
differently. I already had the approach flaps out, and contemplated putting
down the gear to help the descent, but hesitated doing this in icing
conditions (what if I needed to pull up the gear again for some reason
during the approach covered in ice?)

snip

I think one of the approaches to this airport was discussed in IFR
Magazine (maybe it was IFR Refresher) some time ago. As I recall, the
article discussed a pilot who decided to do a 360 to lose some
altitude and hit some granite. Because of the terrain, the slam dunk
is all you've got there, I believe.


Having no experience with or data about the Helena IFR procedures,
but having experience with the high Sierras and Rockies, I would find
it hard to believe the someone would "hit some granite" without being
way out of bounds. I'd describe the terrain around Helena as gently
rolling, not mountainous. Even the mountains to the west are little
more than big hills.
  #15  
Old July 12th 07, 05:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
rps
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Posts: 19
Default Hardest approach flown so far


Everett M. Greene wrote:

Having no experience with or data about the Helena IFR procedures,
but having experience with the high Sierras and Rockies, I would find
it hard to believe the someone would "hit some granite" without being
way out of bounds. I'd describe the terrain around Helena as gently
rolling, not mountainous. Even the mountains to the west are little
more than big hills.


The article I recall was in the pre-GPS days and the pilot became
disoriented/distracted by ice in addition to inability to lose
altitude sufficiently quickly, so it's possible that he was out of
bounds. (It's also possible that this occurred at a different airport
altogether or not at all -- the article was written and read by me
many years ago.)

  #16  
Old July 14th 07, 02:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Doug Vetter
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Posts: 81
Default Hardest approach flown so far

Viperdoc wrote:
Recently, on a long cross country from Portland, OR to Wisconsin, we stopped
at Helena, MT for a gas and pit stop.


Just flew that approach from a few different IAFs in the sim with wx set
for 200 above minimums and 2 miles vis and I have to agree -- it's a
tough approach. Not as ridiculous as Aspen, but it still makes you
question the sanity of the TERPS guys.

Tried it from 12K on the southern arc and 10 on the northern arc at
120KIAS. 750FPM seemed to get me where I was going through the
transition to final, but the final approach segment itself required
around 1000FPM just to reach minimums at the MDA.

Not exactly the kind of approach I'd care to shoot in hard IMC and in
icing at the end of a long day, but aviation is all about the challenge,
right? :-)

Oh, and speaking of mountains, if you think the terrain is bad on this
approach, check out the southern arc landing on 27. They have you
inbound at 10900 then drop you down to 9100 only a few miles from a peak
at 8499. Yikes.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------
  #17  
Old July 14th 07, 10:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 46
Default Hardest approach flown so far

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:43:13 -0400, Doug Vetter
wrote:

Tried it from 12K on the southern arc and 10 on the northern arc at
120KIAS. 750FPM seemed to get me where I was going through the
transition to final, but the final approach segment itself required
around 1000FPM just to reach minimums at the MDA.

Not exactly the kind of approach I'd care to shoot in hard IMC and in
icing at the end of a long day, but aviation is all about the challenge,
right? :-)

Terps allows the final approach segment up to a maximum of 400 feet
per nm. Check out the altitudes and distances, do they meet this? I
think the idea is that you should be able to fly this without
difficulty.

..Oh, and speaking of mountains, if you think the terrain is bad on
this
approach, check out the southern arc landing on 27. They have you
inbound at 10900 then drop you down to 9100 only a few miles from a peak
at 8499. Yikes.

Terps allow a minimum of 500 feet above all obstacles in the
intermediate segment. Sounds normal to me, and probably the same in
multiple places across the US. Can't say I remember if there is any
addition to terps minimums for segments that are in mountainous
regions, perhaps someone else knows.

-Doug



Stan
  #18  
Old July 14th 07, 02:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
q
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Posts: 5
Default Hardest approach flown so far

You don't really provide enough specifics about exact route, center
handling while still in radar contact, handoff, etc.

Having said that, at a terrain-laden airport like HLN, a piston aircraft
is often up against the limits (shock cooling, icing limitations, etc.)
compared to turbine aircraft.

Viperdoc wrote:

Recently, on a long cross country from Portland, OR to Wisconsin, we stopped
at Helena, MT for a gas and pit stop.

Coming from the West with the winds calm, I chose the loc DME BC approach to
runway 9. Even though it's the capitol (is it capital?) of the state, there
is no radar coverage.

First, I had to descend and intercept the DME arc. Once on the arc, we were
in turbulence and IMC, and started picking up ice (my Baron had KI
certification).

Once on the loc BC, there are several step down fixes, but since we were
given the approach clearance several thousand feet high, I had a hard time
reaching the DME fixes at a low enough altitude.

Of course, without radar, the tower was asking us to report position, and I
had to keep telling him I was unable to reach the desired altitudes due to
the excessive descent rate required.

Finally, before the last fix we broke out into VMC, with the valley below
and the airport in sight, still several thousand feet high. We circled once,
and then landed without difficulty.

It was a great learning experience, but I'm not sure what to have done
differently. I already had the approach flaps out, and contemplated putting
down the gear to help the descent, but hesitated doing this in icing
conditions (what if I needed to pull up the gear again for some reason
during the approach covered in ice?)

I could have chopped the power (was already at 15 inches) and descending at
over 1,000 fpm near Va, but I felt a stabilized approach in ice and in
mountainous terrain was safer than making even more radical pitch and power
changes.

I felt like I was behind the eight ball from the start. Is there a better
way to have handled the approach?


  #20  
Old July 14th 07, 02:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
q
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Posts: 5
Default Hardest approach flown so far

Doug Vetter wrote:
Viperdoc wrote:



Oh, and speaking of mountains, if you think the terrain is bad on this
approach, check out the southern arc landing on 27. They have you
inbound at 10900 then drop you down to 9100 only a few miles from a peak
at 8499. Yikes.

-Doug


If you look at the Jeppesen chart the same obstacle is 8,875. Quite a
difference, heh? ;-)

Having said that, you are still at 10,900 when you fly over that
terrain. You don't start down to 9,100 until another 3.7 miles or so.
That is a lot more vertical and horizontal clearance than required by TERPS.
 




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