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#21
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:34:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Charging stations are being installed in "many" Walmart parking lots, situated away from the store where cars rarely park. The ones I've seen have plenty of room to pull-in, charge, back out, and off you go. Other big box stores are probably not far behind. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 A minor point of data: In NZ last month at Omarama, I saw something odd in the field across the highway from the gliderport. I pulled-in to check it out and there was the Tesla charging station. https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2nmt2r4lj...36.55.jpg?dl=0 I'm not sure I'd rent a Tesla to wander around the South Island, but if you're there to fly or just passing through, you can charge while you fly. |
#22
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
2G wrote on 12/14/2019 5:54 PM:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote: Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like the trailer improves your mileage. More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused here. If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed 50 miles. This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).. In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most likely be rather less than 37kW. I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other information about towing with these vehicles. I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle) with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to 60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing. The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi. I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X): edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors: * heat (degrades range) * elevation (degrades range going uphill) * wind (headwinds degrade range) * uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are back-in) * tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph. At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing. And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind. The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some locations), but would you want to? What's missing from his report is how much the trailer affected things, other than accessing the charger. The other issues were not trailer related (heat and grades). Also, while the trailer is lighter, it is taller and wider than a glider trailer, so I think a 15m glider trailer would actually be easier to tow. Scott's experience may reflect the effect of a glider trailer better than Edmunds report. Still, heat and cold affect an electric vehicle more than ICE vehicles, and charging is going to be a problem with a trailer as long as you have to back into places. Better get an electric car with a front charge port! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 |
#23
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 9:18:50 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 12/14/2019 5:54 PM: On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote: Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like the trailer improves your mileage. More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused here. If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed 50 miles. This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).. In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most likely be rather less than 37kW. I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other information about towing with these vehicles. I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle) with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to 60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing. The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi. I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X): edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors: * heat (degrades range) * elevation (degrades range going uphill) * wind (headwinds degrade range) * uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are back-in) * tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph. At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing. And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind. The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some locations), but would you want to? What's missing from his report is how much the trailer affected things, other than accessing the charger. The other issues were not trailer related (heat and grades). Also, while the trailer is lighter, it is taller and wider than a glider trailer, so I think a 15m glider trailer would actually be easier to tow. Scott's experience may reflect the effect of a glider trailer better than Edmunds report. Still, heat and cold affect an electric vehicle more than ICE vehicles, and charging is going to be a problem with a trailer as long as you have to back into places. Better get an electric car with a front charge port! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 Scott didn't provide any actual trip data like was provided in the Edmundon's report. At best, it was a recollection. The trailer in the Edmundon's report was more aerodynamic than a glider trailer, being an airfoil section. It was also lighter and had less wetted area. It was also significantly lighter, so I think a glider would be worse than this, and certainly not better by any significant margin. There is no question that if you try to tow with an electric your achieved cross-country speed is going to be abysmally slow. That is just a fact of the slow charging rate, even using superchargers. He had no problem towing the trailer, which is no surprise as it is lighter and shorter than a glider trailer and well within the Tesla's towing capacity. Tom |
#24
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
The laws of physics and impact to fuel economy do not change for ICE vs. EV on the implication of cooling, hill climbing, headwind or speed, while they are better for EV at altitude and braking.
The Tesla is a great option, would be some considerations for really long-distance relocations, but otherwise wholly adequate, and dramatically better as a vehicle overall. I envy the opportunity to consider it, the towing option for the Model 3 is not an available feature at this time in Canada. |
#25
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:42:13 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 9:18:50 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote: 2G wrote on 12/14/2019 5:54 PM: On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote: Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like the trailer improves your mileage. More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused here. If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed 50 miles. This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).. In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most likely be rather less than 37kW.. I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other information about towing with these vehicles. I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle) with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to 60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing. The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi. I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X): edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors: * heat (degrades range) * elevation (degrades range going uphill) * wind (headwinds degrade range) * uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are back-in) * tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph. At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing. And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind. The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some locations), but would you want to? What's missing from his report is how much the trailer affected things, other than accessing the charger. The other issues were not trailer related (heat and grades). Also, while the trailer is lighter, it is taller and wider than a glider trailer, so I think a 15m glider trailer would actually be easier to tow. Scott's experience may reflect the effect of a glider trailer better than Edmunds report. Still, heat and cold affect an electric vehicle more than ICE vehicles, and charging is going to be a problem with a trailer as long as you have to back into places. Better get an electric car with a front charge port! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 Scott didn't provide any actual trip data like was provided in the Edmundon's report. At best, it was a recollection. The trailer in the Edmundon's report was more aerodynamic than a glider trailer, being an airfoil section.. It was also lighter and had less wetted area. It was also significantly lighter, so I think a glider would be worse than this, and certainly not better by any significant margin. There is no question that if you try to tow with an electric your achieved cross-country speed is going to be abysmally slow. That is just a fact of the slow charging rate, even using superchargers. He had no problem towing the trailer, which is no surprise as it is lighter and shorter than a glider trailer and well within the Tesla's towing capacity. Tom The issue of heat was the first that I had heard of it. This discusses it further: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/1...r-polar-vortex "Extreme heat is also a drag on electric vehicles. When outside temperatures heat up to 95 degrees Fahrenheit and air conditioning is used inside the vehicle, driving ranges can decrease by 17 percent, AAA reports. Extreme temperatures certainly play a role in diminishing driving range, but the use of the vehicle’s heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system in these conditions — particularly the heat — has by far the greatest effect." As I understood the Edmund's article, high temperature degraded range by more than just using the AC. Apparently the conversion electronics and/or battery are not as efficient at higher temperatures. The trailer affects it because more energy is required to pull it, and the car's battery must use even more of its capacity to supply it. When towing with ICE you don't even notice these efficiency losses, as you have more than adequate fuel supply. This is not the case with electrics, where you are running on the ragged edge of capacity. So much so that the Edmundon's reporter had to shut off the AC in 100 F weather. The only comparable situation I have run into towing is using marginal tow vehicles (a minivan) going over high desert mountain passes. I have had to use the heater to increase the cooling capacity of the engine to prevent over-heating. I replaced the minivan with a SUV. The bottom line is that towing with an electric car raises a lot of issues that should be understood BEFORE hitting the road. Tom |
#26
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
Op vrijdag 13 december 2019 22:19:35 UTC+1 schreef bertvaneyken:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly? Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre....157907/page-4 |
#27
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 18:47:47 -0800, 2G wrote:
IC cars aren't heated for free: the engine must be brought up to operating temp regardless of the outside temp. Mileage drops during the winter even while you are getting for pounds of fuel per gallon. True, but that's also the case in summer - at least over here. Similarly, my car is pretty much up to temperature by the time I've driven it across town (under 3 miles - the gliding club is 43 miles away). The only time its running while stationary at the start of a trip is for the 10 minutes or so when I need to scrape frost off the windows and the electric windscreen will be on then as well. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#28
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 01:52:45 -0800, swinkelj wrote:
Op vrijdag 13 december 2019 22:19:35 UTC+1 schreef bertvaneyken: Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly? Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...hanger-met-de- tesla-model-3.157907/page-4 Ah Ha - 0.225 kWh/km ! That clarifies things a lot. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#29
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
Still hard to beat the energy density of gasoline. Batteries just don't come close, and when they are "empty," you are still hauling the weight around. I'll stick with my F-150 at 18 mpg and 400+ mile range. At 75 mph.
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#30
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Tesla Model 3 and a glider
Me too I will stick with my F250 diesel 4x4, gets around 17pmg hauling , has near 500 mile range and when, not if, I land out in the toolies, she can get to me and haul me out.
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