Flap performance

Just:
Always good to have concern about making too big a move, but I believe with time in H301 and Janus, you'll be fine. The Ventus has better glide path control than either.
Get one with modern winglets, or add them. The Ventus A/B without winglets is where the bad reputation came from. While the factory ASW20 is easier to fly, it also improves with good winglets.
Jim

For some clarification. I wouldn't call myself "experienced" in a Janus. I've had several flights in it with an instructor. I found it to be an odd mix of surprisingly pleasant (I find it more fun to fly than any other two place ship I've flown, which have all been trainers) and demanding. I recall one point on a particular tow where I asked the instructor to take over. I've never done that before and never since. In hindsight I was probably doing fine but I felt like I was really struggling to keep behind the tug... but I had significantly less experience than I have now and it was only one flight.

My question really was: how does it fly in neutral flaps versus a Discus. I'm not suggesting that I would fly without the flaps. The question is, if I haven't mastered the ship, and the use of flaps am I actually going to be worse off than in a non-flapped ship. I'm looking at the amount that I fly and realistically assessing that I'll likely never master the ship the way a serious competition pilot would. If that's the case, would I actually be worse off in a flapped ship.

Thanks for the input.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 5:03:26 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?

Was it really that hard to understand my point?

Yes. The original poster says he's experienced in a Janus, also a flapped ship from SH, and quite probably older and less refined than a Ventus.

I've got 60 or 70 hours in an original (18m, flying tail, belly hook only) Janus and I'm very comfortable in it and with the flaps, to the point that I feel the lack of both low and high speed performance when I fly the 18m DG1000. I've never flown a Ventus or any other flapped single seater.

I'm finally, after 30 years flying gliders, in a position where I'm considering buying my own ship. I'm thinking about a Nimbus 2 or maybe Mini Nimbus, rather than Ventus, but I imagine the same considerations apply.

I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75% of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent in a flapped 2-seater, surely.

My cautions w.r.t. Ventus B aren't based on the fact that it has flaps. They are based on the fact that it is a "fast, unstable, edgy sailplane". It's a lot more work to fly (well) than any of its contemporaries, as even George Moffat has admitted!

Guys I know who have owned both tell me that the Ventus C is far and away more suitable for low time pilots than the Ventus A/B. More dihedral, better aileron control were the big things iirc. I was told it was a far more pleasant sailplane to fly. ASW-20 is also a better choice as far as flying qualities are concerned (just don't forget to hook up the elevator).

Still... I'll dig in on my original point: a 200 hour pilot will be comfortable and XC ready in a Discus more or less instantly. That's worth something. And that's why Disci command higher prices in the US market.

best,
Evan

Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 18:10:25 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:

My question really was: how does it fly in neutral flaps versus a Discus. I'm not suggesting that I would fly without the flaps. The question is, if I haven't mastered the ship, and the use of flaps am I actually going to be worse off than in a non-flapped ship. I'm looking at the amount that I fly and realistically assessing that I'll likely never master the ship the way a serious competition pilot would. If that's the case, would I actually be worse off in a flapped ship.


I have been flying as instructor in a group where we were doing ab-initio training on a Janus B. Students were told to leave the flaps alone and in neutral position until post-solo training, and that worked pretty well.

Bert "TW"

I once flew my 27 alongside a Discus2a over a 40k glide in a comp in still
air. Both at 55kts me in neutral flap. At the end of the glide I was about
200ft better off.

At 100kts, I think I would have him by significantly more!

Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?

Was it really that hard to understand my point?

Yes. The original poster says he's experienced in a Janus, also a flapped ship from SH, and quite probably older and less refined than a Ventus.

I've got 60 or 70 hours in an original (18m, flying tail, belly hook only) Janus and I'm very comfortable in it and with the flaps, to the point that I feel the lack of both low and high speed performance when I fly the 18m DG1000. I've never flown a Ventus or any other flapped single seater.

I'm finally, after 30 years flying gliders, in a position where I'm considering buying my own ship. I'm thinking about a Nimbus 2 or maybe Mini Nimbus, rather than Ventus, but I imagine the same considerations apply.

I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75% of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent in a flapped 2-seater, surely.

My cautions w.r.t. Ventus B aren't based on the fact that it has flaps. They are based on the fact that it is a "fast, unstable, edgy sailplane". It's a lot more work to fly (well) than any of its contemporaries, as even George Moffat has admitted!

Guys I know who have owned both tell me that the Ventus C is far and away more suitable for low time pilots than the Ventus A/B. More dihedral, better aileron control were the big things iirc. I was told it was a far more pleasant sailplane to fly. ASW-20 is also a better choice as far as flying qualities are concerned (just don't forget to hook up the elevator).

Still... I'll dig in on my original point: a 200 hour pilot will be comfortable and XC ready in a Discus more or less instantly. That's worth something. And that's why Disci command higher prices in the US market.
O.P. - there's a collection of "sensibly spot-on" feedback to your post(s)
throughout this thread, and I infer (from trying to read between the lines)
you've "got your head/mind screwed on sensibly" (which is worth a great
deal!). My .02-cents follows...

Cruise control (i.e. camber-changing-only) flaps should (IMHO) *never* be
thought of as "some mysterious Big Deal" by anyone considering making the step
to them...for all the reasons already touched upon by others. For anyone about
to sensibly enter XC-land (a wunnerful playground!), getting one's brain
around how best to think about and use camber-changing flaps can be
straightforwardly, and safely, and "more or less "book-learning completely,"
grasped well before one's first flight in a new-to-them single-seater.
Changing "book-learnin'-knollich" into genuinely internalized understanding is
(arguably) even more straightforward, once in the air and building PIC time.
Simply apply your book-knollich and test against reality...

For the record, I transitioned from "Schweizer stuff" into a 15-meter
landing-flap-equipped (i.e. no spoilers) 1st-generation glass bird at 125
total hours. Unlike T8's 200-hour experience into an HP-18, my (non-event)
transition was eased by my ship (a Concept 70) being a handling pussy cat
(think flap-equipped G-102), and my subsequent transition at ~196 hours into
an HP-14 (also landing-flapped-only) was similarly straightforwardly easy,
despite the '14 being (in some ways) an "edgier bird" than anything I'd
previously flown.

Since then, I've witnessed and engaged with beaucoup pilots who - for a host
of reasons - psyched themselves out come transition-to-flaps (of any sort)
time. A very few have subsequently busted their ships, and a larger lot scared
themselves into other hobbies. My accumulating sense is that the bulk of these
groups' cumulative problems have begun more from misconceptions in their
thinking than from outright under-developed stick skills (though, of course,
the two are closely coupled). YMMV...

Looking ahead, do consider sharing your transition experiences on RAS once
"adequately internalized." Until then, have fun along the way!!!

Bob W.

---
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On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 7:10:25 PM UTC+3, wrote:
For some clarification. I wouldn't call myself "experienced" in a Janus. I've had several flights in it with an instructor. I found it to be an odd mix of surprisingly pleasant (I find it more fun to fly than any other two place ship I've flown, which have all been trainers) and demanding. I recall one point on a particular tow where I asked the instructor to take over. I've never done that before and never since.

Ahh .. I know what you mean. My first couple of flights in a Janus I was working so hard on tow that I completely lost situational awareness. How high are we? Where is the airport? No idea.

You don't want that to happen flying solo.

So I'd definitely recommend going back and getting a sign-off in that Janus and putting in 20 or 30 hours in it before attempting a Ventus.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 7:32:01 PM UTC+3, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 18:10:25 UTC+2, a écritÂ*:

My question really was: how does it fly in neutral flaps versus a Discus. I'm not suggesting that I would fly without the flaps. The question is, if I haven't mastered the ship, and the use of flaps am I actually going to be worse off than in a non-flapped ship. I'm looking at the amount that I fly and realistically assessing that I'll likely never master the ship the way a serious competition pilot would. If that's the case, would I actually be worse off in a flapped ship.


I have been flying as instructor in a group where we were doing ab-initio training on a Janus B. Students were told to leave the flaps alone and in neutral position until post-solo training, and that worked pretty well.

I've taken a fair number of first timers (or power transition pilots) in a Janus A. I always put it into +6 and left it there for them. Calmed it down a lot and made it act about like a Grob.

I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.

Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 10:58:19 AM UTC-7, Just Me wrote:
I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.

Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.

I have several hundred hours in a Ventus C with winglets. It flies very nicely, and likes to go fast. No bad habits, but I find that it is a little twitchy in pitch control, and I have a harder time maintaining constant speed in thermals. Last year I moved the CG back to about 80% aft and I felt like I had a new ship! Much easier to maintain airspeed in circling or straight flight. much less (or no) need to re-trim after changing flaps. I usually land and thermal in +2 rather than "L" flap setting, as it can get a little "wallowy" in "L". On takeoff, flaps are in -1 position, and I move them to +2 to leave the ground rather than use the stick. This also provides a better view of the tug on tow.

YMMV

Matt H.